1978-0412-Going-Within-KSU-Part-2

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Title	1978-0412-Going-Within-KSU-Part-2
Recorded date	Mid 1970s per Rose Publications and tape labels
Location
Number of tapes
Other recorders audible?
Alternate versions exist?
Source	RP and DW. for RP see 1970s-Going-Within-commercial-recording
No. of MP3 files
Total time	DW is 1 x 60. Approximately 62 minutes
Transcription status	First pass Dec 3, 2024, Auto-AI, Happy scribe
Link to distribution copy	http://distribution.direct-mind.org/ (need password)
Link to PDF	http://distribution.direct-mind.org/ Or try http://selfdefinition.org/rose/
Published in what book?
Published on which website?
Remarks	Part #2 (this page) begins with Q&A - method of studying past traumas. Part #1 is 1978-0412-Going-Within-KSU-Part-1 which is same as 1970s-Going-Within-commercial-recording
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URL at direct-mind.org	https://www.direct-mind.org/index.php/1978-0412-Going-Within-KSU-Part-2
	For access to this wiki or the audio files please send an email to: editors@direct-mind.org
Revision timestamp	20241210234822

Notes

Part #1 is available from Richard Rose Teachings: https://richardroseteachings.com/audio-video/

See 1970s-Going-Within-commercial-recording

Versions: DW = 1 x 60 ; RP = Commercial recording = 10+9+4+8+7+22+3=63

Note: SN = 1 x 60 is part 1, not part 2. Already distributed

Identifiable voices: Tim Franta (so probably Ohio)

Old notes: “There are two talks – need to see if they are the same, and if they are same as Cecy’s CD. 1st says Going Inside / Going Within and is dated on spreadsheet as “November 1977”, one 90 minute cassette, three mp3 files from Jake. 2nd says 1970s, one 60 minute cassette from Shawn.”

This is NOT 1977-11-Method-of-Going-Inside-Pittsburgh (MJ title='Going Within') but date is probably close.

Try to find location, then create page separate from the commercial recording.

Date cues

Side 2, min 11:13: I gave a lecture here six months or a year ago Psychology of the Observer -- So this would be 1978. The lectures would have been: 1977-1004-Psychology-of-Zen-Science-of-Knowing-OSU or 1977-1012-Psychology-of-the-Observer-Kent-State

Side 1, min 9: somebody said last night that somebody has to carry the torch Known talks in Ohio in 1978 are 1978-0412-Kent-State-University a Wednesday and 1978-0511-Relative-and-Absolute-OSU-Columbus a Thursday. << check these for such a remark

So if 1978-0412-Kent-State-University this would be 1978-0413-OSU. And if 1978-0511-Relative-and-Absolute-OSU-Columbus this would be 1978-0512-KSU or Akron.

Transcript

File dw1

dw1-00:01

Rose: Well, I have a paper written on meditation, and basically what it amounts to is what I talked about previously. Do not get into quiescent meditation. You'll never find any real revelations about yourself in quiescent meditation. And this is what just exactly all you have to do is go back in the past. If you can't think about something in the present, go back in the past, and this will start to melt your egos. And then this is where you start to really find yourself. Go back in the past and look at things that happened to you, like somebody that insulted you, some trauma, some sorrow, sometime that you embarrassed yourself. That's when somebody caught your ego for you, you want to show it to you, you want to see it? That's the truth. These are the things to meditate about. What? You mean like that? Yes. Other suggestions put you as a super-efficent fact, like a lullaby. You can lullaby yourself to sleep. Yes. It's what I call traumatic, traumatic effect. Yes. It's what I call traumatic, traumatic. Meditation as opposed to we have some meditation. And it doesn't take long. If you go home this evening, you have to get away.

dw1-01:38

Rose: You should get away from the family or whatever for a half hour or so and just get into the habit of sitting down. And it's amazing what will key it in. You don't have to go back in your diary. If you've got a diary, that's very good. I very seldom kept anything in the diary. But I remember that the best meditations that I had came as a result reading Madame Blablasky's Secret Doctrine, Isis Unvail. I was fascinated with it in my early 20s, and the big books that I could read, read, read, and never get them done. But I found that I would be I would be reading something about yogis in India or something, and all of a sudden, I would remember something I did 10 years before. No correlation. I don't know why it caused it. But I believe that don't try. Don't sit down and say, I am going to think about what I was 10 years later. This is foolishness. You have to just sit, but have this thought in the back of your head that this is what you really want to think about, and ultimately it'll come. You can use a diary.

dw1-02:43

Rose: A diary is very good, or something That's all right. That's the thing. In terms of middle medication, people make a lot of claims about the benefits of the meditation. Do you think they're untrue, or do you think it's just not generally suited for the majority of people? Well, I was a little bit turned away from TM because of the money involved. I don't think that you should charge somebody for a syllabus. But the funny thing is, if you want to build a movement, there's nothing like money to cement the movement together. So I've done some people that took to a PM, and then they took teaching, PM teaching, and they went to Switzerland. This one boy went to Switzerland, paid $1,200 a day. I don't think it's up to now to that. For the privilege of taking a rake off of the people he'd done. And I thought this whole construction was unnecessary, that was all. Now, it's to The good it does, if it helps somebody, if a guy pays $75, $80 in and it clots his mind and he finds peace and he's able to get away from some hangup, that's well worth me $80.

dw1-03:58

Rose: Well worth me $80. It doesn't have to be. But I still did. It's just my personal idea. I believe that he give it to him for nothing. But if you did, the maharadji or whatever his name is, maharishi, would have to pay his way over here and back. He could give it away for nothing. The thing is, what is excessive in the first class, or should he went back on a boat? That's what is exorbitant pricing. Dream analysis. No, I think sometimes they will... It's good to record your dreams. I think it's a good idea to record your dream because some dreams... Of course, I'm talking myself. I can't speak correctly. Some people may have all one type of dream. But some dreams are Some dreams that you will dream of the future, and it's good to write them down. Others will break it, especially if you keep them over a period of 10 or 20 years. Others will start to see certain hang-ups that show an effect upon your dreams. And you'll be able to see your hang-up through reading a dream of two or three years back, or the stuff in them. Like you dream of going on a picnic, and you're sitting there meditating about something that happened five years ago.

dw1-05:27

Rose: And so you open up this book of dreams, and you realize that you're on a picnic. The picnic correlates an argument that occurred at the picnic or a love affair that occurred after the picnic was over, something of that sort. And you start back into this film, this roll of film. You see what I mean? So it works in that respect, taking you back. I do believe that the dreams are... You're trying to tell yourself something in a lot of dreams. A lot of them are. And also, sometimes I found that you're able to see, at least I have been able to see people more clearly when I dreamt of them, than what I'd like a place to make. Seeing that I dreamt of what was behind the personality mask. In reality, I would get it much more accurate, much more It's a horrible picture than the one I had talking to the face-to-face. So there is a value to the recording tree. Yeah. Well, I don't believe that that should ever be... I don't believe you ever expect power. I don't think that's what goes along with it. I don't know that if... I realized that the older I get, the more power I seem to have.

dw1-06:51

Rose: And I don't particularly look for it. And I don't know where it comes. I don't know where it comes from, to be honest with you. Whether it's a result of the experience, or it's just a result of studying these things and having them in my head for 40 or 50 years. But I've heard this repeatedly, that in Asia as well, people have reached that. Some of them have a tremendous amount of power. But I don't visualize it as my power. I don't visualize it as me doing anything. I never have. I'm sometimes surprised by things that happen around me. But I do believe that there's a change in me. There's an ability to affect me, the projected stageplay, to a degree. There's a limit to it, the amount of change anybody can cause. But to a degree, you can affect it. You can affect other minds. You can definitely affect other minds. You can enter other minds if you're going to call that power. You can pick up. Like I said, if you ever attended one of the report sessions, which I said, this is what we generally do, is try to get the habit of finding report so that you can enter other minds.

dw1-08:20

Rose: You can heal people. It's worth it. It's not worth it. In fact, I inhibited a lot of this stuff because I found that it became a sideshow. People coming down to the place, coming over from Boston. 15 or 20 of them coming in from other cities just to sit there and wait for a sideshow. I quit. They weren't coming there to work. And it's all right to see the sideshow if you're going to say, well, let's go to work now. Let's see if we can duplicate that in our own nature. They don't. They said, they could back in the old rat race, continue what they were doing. So it's not unusual to see someone have an experience in a report session. It wasn't in the past. And now I don't allow it to happen because the ones that had them didn't work. They didn't try to pass it on. The person has to work. I maintain that, as that fellow said last night, somebody has to carry the torch. If you receive something, you should help. In other words, even presuming that we're all part of the absolute, we're all, as that boy said back there, we're all individuals as well.

dw1-09:40

Rose: It's like the sun. The sun is the sun, but it has billions of rays. So the analogy between the human and the absolute is like the rays of the sun. And if the rays have lost their way out from the central sun and they can help each other get back, well, I'm good. That's just the point.

dw1-10:03

Q: You mentioned another type of meditation, which was meditating on getting past the empire.

dw1-10:13

Rose: That's just studying the observer. Yeah, the observer. Not studying the observer, studying the empire and being the final observer. Yes, this is a direct going within, which is another type of meditation, et cetera, of just watching your actions. Watching yourself, watching. You will watch the whole process. As well as the mental process, you'll ultimately get behind it and watch them happen. And you start off with what's manifest. Past. You just start off, for instance, and watch yourself eating. Something of that sort. Watch yourself talking. You wonder why. Everybody has this experience where they They have a close friend or something, or somebody's got this potential close friend. And in the middle of a conversation, they say something in absolute glass, any possibility, right? You're saying, jeez, they got the wrong impression And there's no way I can correct any time, any apology or anything, just make it look like it's more of a scheme. Well, this is the beginning of watching yourself when you start to watch yourself. And as I said, you start I have to change. But at the same time, you never lose track of that pattern. You never lose track of the animals out there trying to maneuver, manipulate.

dw1-11:44

Rose: Oh, yes. All right. We have this much more intense work with what you're at, these university groups. There's only one thing that holds a person up and that's himself. The idea is when you said help, this is exactly what it is. Nobody can change you. The only thing you can do is remind. It's like alcoholics anonymous. In other words, the alcoholic has to cure himself. The person that is obsessed with, let's say, self-importance, he has to cure himself. You can poke at him, you can remind him. You can say, Hey, what do you think of yourself? Or what's your opinion on this? Or that, and start to analyze it. That helps. But basically, it's up to the dynamic drive and the individual to come up with it. I had this conviction. It's like the law of physics. Results are proportional to energy applied. If you put out enough energy, you can become a millionaire. You may be sorry, but you have a million. If you apply all your intellect, all your physical energy, and I don't allow your energy in that direction. I don't mean have your fist of whiskey on the table and all that is going on, too.

dw1-13:06

Rose: But concentrate all your energy on making a million dollars, you can become a millionaire. And I maintained that I could take that same amount of direction and find a spiritual value. Discounting superstition, self-hypnosis, religious fanaticism, no. Go right down the hard road of not taking anything for granted, accepting nothing, doubt everything. And I say that in regards to me. Doubt me. That's the reason I don't like to put out prescriptions and say, chant this prayer, say this. Sure, if somebody says, Will that help? I say, Yes. If it provides you, it might help. But you have to doubt me. So if you doubt me too much, what good am I hearing? Probably. Well, because of a simple fact that maybe I stir your head up. Nothing else. Maybe I inspire you to start looking for yourself. Because nine chances in 10, 25, 50 % of the people here will never see me again. But I maintain that they may be stirred up. They may be inspired to go digging a little bit. They'll go back to sleep, and then maybe somebody else will find them up. Sooner or later, they may start thinking. But I believe that there have been certain systems.

dw1-14:20

Rose: Zen is one of them that will irritate you and cause you to think. The Kerjeeffian system is very good, you're a good, Jeffrey's system is very good. Possibly when he was living, I I don't know. I think today, they're being generated into rackets. Quite a few that we've looked into, I found to be money rackets. But the Kerjeeffian system, the Uspensky Kerjeeffian system, the news is the only two that I recommend Well, the spiritual realm and the mental realm are pretty much the same thing. And I'll tell you how I differentiate. We have what I call physical quantum energy. These are all represented in the human being. The physical quantum energy is the energy that we get from food. Because as babies, we're weak, we're built it all from food. And it's stored in our muscles and in our fat. And the mental or neural energy is energy that's in the nervous system and in the coil. The brain isn't much more than a coil, with which enough charges are thrown in there. It can even broadcast. It can put out telepathic mental messages that another brain can pick up. So this is where the mental dimension comes in, in the neural system.

dw1-15:52

Rose: Now, we take this and we aspire to a spiritual system. And there is no a vehicle for spiritual energy, but yet spiritual energy develops. There's what we call spiritual energy. In other words, by the transmutation of food, we get material energy. We get, as I said, body energy, calories, caloric energy, heat, and kinetic energy. Now, we also... It's stored also in the glands, incidentally. By the transmutation of food, we get that. By the transmutation of the gland of our energy, we get energy. In other words, by civilization as a result of sublimation of animal instincts. We sit in the classroom, instead of hanging from the tree playing with ourselves. In other words, That's part of the process of education. Keep your sedan busy, you can't do too much else. But anyhow, the sublimation, the sublimation of this neural energy produces an automatic projection of spiritual, what I would call spiritual energy. And this is what you can project it, not in the form of telepathy, but you can heal people with it, or you can tap a mind with it, and that mind can reach your realization with it. And this is the maximum value of all energy.

dw1-17:21

Rose: Yes. You can do things that wouldn't be the party of any good. That would be called evil. Might be doing you some good, but them not. Yes. But it doesn't stop. That doesn't work too long. You hear cases of that, but generally, nobody does anything for nothing. And if a person is wise enough to know how to produce that energy, he's also wise I think that's what we're talking about, that we're talking about the fact that it's foolish. That anything he does with it, unless it has a real spiritual purpose, is foolishness. Well, if you want to call it that, there's no... Yeah, Yes, as far as our evaluations are concerned, it would be positive. And I think the more in this direction you go, there's no way it can be anything else by human standards. There's no reason for... In other words, I've said repeatedly, there's nothing wrong with killing people. Absolutely nothing wrong with killing people. There's no reason to. There's no reason to. Why give yourself a headache? The thing in itself. In other words, one of you are allowed to drive out tonight, went over somebody and killed him. And that doesn't need to shake you up.

dw1-18:40

Rose: But there was no reason for doing it, and there's no reason for presuming I mean, if you're above it either. We may be called upon sometime to be the acts of God. We've never been going to die. Sometimes somebody drops a hammer off the scaffold, it helps you out. That's it. Stay dry..

dw1-19:16

Q: Oh, some of them are alive with Spinoza.

dw1-19:22

Rose: I don't know too much about that. In the West Coast, I didn't know they were in this part of the country. But in the West Coast, it's what they call the Gurchet-Spinoza groups, which some of our- That was the only one I saw. I'm not a claimant of the Spinoza at all. I don't know why they tied up, why they used that combination. I think Spinsky is a next song.

dw1-19:46

Q: I don't know. Spinoza is further to start, I think.

dw1-19:49

Rose: Could be, but I don't know too much about Spinoza.

dw1-19:52

Q: I don't know what it's called.

dw1-19:56

Rose: I think you get a lot from reading It looks like the fourth way by Uspensky. There's a system in their thinking that I don't follow entirely. In other words, one of his themes is self-remembering. And his idea of self-remembering is, isn't it? He's not the same as my looking back on the role of film. Uspensky's idea of remembering yourself is try to remember everything you've ever done now. I can't see the point of it. But if you wanted mental discipline, it's a mental discipline. I got the feeling that Uspensky thought that the mortality was the ability to remember your entire life in a second. And of course, my concept is that when the synapses in the brain goes, the synapses rock. And a lot of this particularized thinking also goes in that what we have to develop is our living in awareness, our settling in awareness, rather than our setting in the synapses rock. I think we've basically a little hung up on that. But it's a good discipline. In other words, it's the first psychology that came out for the Western mind that came out flat and said, Man is a robot. Now, some of the skinnarian psychologists also say, Man is a robot or an animal, but they wanted to be responsible.

dw1-21:22

Rose: A robot should never be tried. He tried to get it made the robot. This is the thing. But this is unfortunately, the psychology tries to form itself to suit the people that fund it. So it doesn't dare state flatly. In other words, if all of your so-called alienists got up on the witness stand and said that the man could not control himself when he chopped up his neighbor with a hatchet, the courts would quit calling the psychologist to testify. The profession would relegated to something in the back room. They would allow them not to testify because they have to have reinforcement for enforcing laws. So I consider this a little bit of a process Constitution on the part of the psychological sciences is that they do still, while preaching Skinner on one hand, and condition reflexes, they still say that man is responsible. How can he be responsible if he's just a bundle of condition reflexes? Unfortunately, this is what they're doing. They're trying to do. The theme goes on. What you need is a chief programmer for the robots. And this is the work done in the sociologist who build a culture and put out certain bait so that this mob will think in a certain manner.

dw1-22:59

Rose: This is what we're getting. The basis for a lot of your education is the psychological truths are really nothing more than sociological pretenses. If we believe certain things, we will not fight, such as the canary concept of masturbating the lions that belongs to fish. The same thing as distributing drugs wholesale along the streets whenever there's a dangerous arrive. People cannot give pills away. So everybody gets to their hands off if they can't fight. These things are sociological byproducts, in my estimation. And we're in sad shape when we allow our psychological systems, our social psychology, and we got sociology, and our psychology, and our psychiatry, all to be implemented in this governmental arm. Our psychology are sold out. The people who write the books are sold out. Because their books will be used in universities, and if they're used, they'll get paid to write in the park. They have to be fucking. What time is the other time? 1:35. That's it.

dw1-24:27

Q: I'm going to get rid of feeling responsible?

dw1-24:30

Rose: What do you want to get rid of it for? Well, I don't believe that man is responsible. I don't believe that man is responsible. But what I'm saying is that I feel- I believe you're a robot, but we should always try to, I refer to it as trying to reach behind and wind your own spring. Trying to find that transister that takes the automatic control off, so it's manually controlled. I think there are things that you can do that make you more and more aware that you are able to run the show. Yes, this is the So this is thrown at us. They say, well, if you want freedom, if you want free will, then you got to accept responsibility. Because if you have the choice to do as you please, then you have to have correct judgment or you have to be held responsible if you make a mistaken judgment. Now, this is the whole reason for crime and punishment. In other words, they say, you are an Asia free will agent, so therefore we can punish you. We can sentence you for something you did. My belief is that 99 % of all crimes should be treated to find out how he got fouled up in the gears, not how he did something himself, but how he got fouled up in the gears that surrounded him in his environment.

dw1-26:01

Rose: Yes, they should try. In other words, of course, this is not going to happen because you're not going to change. I realized this a long time ago. There's a lot of errors. There's a lot of injustice going on. We don't have time to change. You only got a few years to sort this puzzle out. And if you commit yourself a lot, a lot of people say this, hey, it's important to get into social work because this humanity needs us. God. The only thing we need to do is save ourselves. If everybody does this little task of trying to save themselves, I presume it'll be a much more compatible society to live in. We can't enforce that either. But hopefully that if they're not going to tolerate us looking for ourselves, we got to hide. They're going to go out in the desert or something. Masquerade it. You'll get back and wear a suit. They'll never dream that you You're supposed to be skinny and all beat the hell in order to have any thoughts. Somebody had their hand up. Yeah, there he is.

dw1-27:15

Q: Yeah, the reason it gets back to why I feel responsible is basically, okay, separated from everybody else inside of myself, I have such a set of voices saying, I should look for the way out. Okay. But because I have another whole set of voices that want to pretend or get away from the work involved with keeping my mind on the problem, I feel responsible when I find myself awakened from a long last week and I'm not doing. With the one voice, like right now, I'm stirred up.

dw1-27:56

Rose: I got to I asked for a few hours. Well, you should never drink beer except in a beer drink that has a mirror. And you're half safe. You'll have to stand there and watch the silliness going on. Now, we can We hear in a bar where people are dead. You see them looking... Preparing themselves, they're throwing up an ego. There's some drunk woman in the table that they're going to be preparing to meet. They're fixing their hair off and embracing themselves, popping themselves. Sometimes they stand there and curse themselves. Talk to the phone in the mirror. It's good therapy. The mirror helps. The mirror helps a lot.. Right. Oh, I feel sorry for waitresses and nurses. I do. Because all the garbage is projected onto them. Yeah, they project everything onto them. And it's a service that shouldn't be necessary. They put machines the bear joints if necessary. They get a can of bear out, I'll put a nickel in it and get your can. That personal attention, they abuse it. I was trying to think of something I've written here the ago. I saw a line of men along the bar, looking into the glass.

dw1-29:54

Rose: Each man sees himself as God, the next man but an ask.

End file dw1

File dw2

dw2-00:01

Rose: They believe like the Presbyterians in predestination. Why follow a spiritual path? It's all predestination. We've heard this question. He said that the whole scheme was already laid out. But he said, We have the privilege of desire. That there was an intelligence besides theirs or else they're skizzling. Or they In other words, they've got a split intelligence. You understand what I'm talking about? Like a person gets drunk, and he starts to take a few drinks, and the next thing you know, he can't stop. He's just more and more losing for himself. And he finds out he has a history for him. It was repeated, the uncontrollable drinking spree. And when he recovers from it momentarily, he makes up his mind that he was wrong. Whenever a man makes up his mind that he was wrong, he's talking about two people.

dw2-01:04

Q: Why is it meant for two people? Why can't it be?

dw2-01:07

Rose: Well, because there's a person, there's a voice that says it's very logical and sensible to drink. And when you talk to alcoholists, people that are in a certain phase of drinking, the people that don't drink are crazy. But that same person, when he gets too much and recovers, then anybody that drinks is crazy. So he's He got two sets of conviction, which in my estimation, shows that one of those states was brought upon by something prompting him from outside himself. I don't say he's necessarily schizole, but he goes through a state of conviction, a state of mind, and it goes into conviction where he believes that it's valid to maybe it's sex, maybe it's moods, maybe it's dope. But everybody's had some experience along that line to know that they heard argument, probe, for, dissipation. And then, and that's what I call the... This is what we first get into the study of the egos, the voices of man. And we realize that we are neither one. In other words, because we're watching these two parts of ourselves argue, fight over the destiny of that self that's observing this whole thing going on. This is the first step in meditation when you see this, when you begin to see that you are dichotomized, that there's more than what.

dw2-02:34

Rose: For instance, the stomach will put up a whole set of arguments. The gonads will have a whole set of philosophy. And I know a fellow that drank heavily, and he was quite convinced that he belonged to the last supper. And that's where he got his start, because Christ drank wine. He wasn't doing anything wrong. He's just doing more of it. There's all sorts of rationalizations crop up. But later that And my conclusion is that it comes from outside of the self. The self does not want to kill itself drinking. The self does not want to take dope until the person is helpless and can't recover any longer. So it's caused by suggestions from an intelligence external to the man. Yes?

dw2-03:22

Q: I think there's an area outside of the self and the other- The mind dimension, basically. That you were getting to get in the right to relate to that area rather than just trying to deal with the things in this area.

dw2-03:38

Rose: Well, that's what is in this area. When this body winds up in the hospital or the morgue and the observers, where the person sees himself headed that way, this area, he has to deal with it. This is what I maintain as the weakness of modern psychology. They prefer to deal with just what they see and ignore this stuff, thinking it'll go away, thinking if you don't give credence to it, if we build unnecessary credence, we build unnecessary importance by identifying and accepting something which they would like to think is a tribal superstition. But this has proven psychology that's been proven through 10,000 years of laymen and church investigation. That is people in different... I'm not going to talk about Christian. In Asia as well. For thousands of years, they have struggled with the nature of man and with the same philosophy. Every major religion on the face of the Earth for 6,000 years has had a strong belief in the existence of enemies, as being influential in people's behavior.

dw2-04:42

Q: I was talking about an area outside of the church.

dw2-04:52

Rose: Oh, you mean going beyond that into spirituality? Unfortunately, you can't meditate If you have something chewing on you, this is what you get into. I noticed that when people were taking acid, people would come maybe around with a been taking acid, and they would pick up on what I said and almost inspire you with hope for them because they were right with you. They had this direct mind contact as a result of the acid. And you think, boy, this is a spiritual chance for the person. The next day, he don't know what the hell you're talking about. He's forgotten the whole thing completely is off on another trip. It's buttercups today. He has to be with Zen. So there's no way to transcend this step-by-step method of dealing with what we have at hand first, which is the human body, then the human mind, and knowing all there is to know about the human mind, because you're going to have to go through that and find the real self. It's not a question of a quote. In other words, some philosophies create concepts concept structures. Some religions create concept structures. Heaven is such and such.

dw2-06:06

Rose: And then books and books and books are printed to try to justify wishful thinking, as opposed to say, I know nothing, but I'm going to start from scratch, and I'm going to look at his eyes myself and see what I can find. This is the difference. Do you think drugs can be used at all beneficially for explaining? Well, I think at any Anything will give you a glimpse. It's just even sex. I don't think that a person that's a virginity has any value until you lose it. It's the same with a million dollars or a nickel. We don't know the value of it until we lose it. We don't know the value of money until it's gone. You know what I mean? You have to have it, lose it, then you know what money is. You have to have virtue and energy and lose it, and then you know what it would be worth. Now, by the same token, You don't do like Rasputin, you keep on losing it just to show that you can get to find out repeatedly what the value of it is. But pretty soon you lose the whole value of the system of evaluation.

dw2-07:09

Rose: And you become mentally incompetent to judge If you're going to take anything after a while if you indulge in anything too much. So consequently, I do think that a little bit of acid gives you an insight, but it is really a grabber. And I know there's quite a few people here that take an acid. And nearly all of you will agree that you were conscious of an entity. You were conscious of an intelligence behind the trip. Now, they talk when they please about psychology. Let I'm not going to take that trip. I took acid. That's the reason I know what I'm talking about. I only took it once. Two weeks of recovering from it. But there was a fellow there that sold it to me, and he's looking after me. And I kept saying to him, Who's the pimp that's running this warehouse? I knew that somebody was taking my energy. Something, not me, not just nervous system, not just the bloodstream. Some intelligence was projecting a picture show, a very beautiful picture show. And I was watching it. I was dead almost. My and my body disappeared, the room disappeared. The only thing I saw was animated flowers coming up from what seemed to be my spine, my lower spine.

dw2-08:43

Rose: It was like a lily just kept coming up, and each leaf was composed of an infinitesimal number of lines which were electronic, vibrating. I couldn't understand it. This was the trip. And I found it was green, predominantly And as I started to come out of it, I'm looking at something green on the couch. It turns out to be green hair and the tail of a pussy cat. But regardless of the source, that energy came from me because for two weeks, I couldn't get it back. And somebody took me and showed me a picture show for my energy. So this is what happens. Nothing's for nothing. You go to the picture show, you pay. And so how many trips you go for before you burn out? I was 50 years of age when I took it, so maybe you guys were a lot quicker than me. I don't know. But that was enough for me for one lifetime. I thought, the reason I took it was I thought that it would... I read this thing by Lierry, and he talked about it turning on and dropping out and all this stuff. And I thought, well, maybe there is.

dw2-09:58

Rose: Maybe there's a chemical that'll put And it didn't object me back into the experience. Well, see, it didn't. I'll say this, that I did go through the death experience, but I didn't receive any illumination. I was quite convinced that I was dead. In fact, even when I came back, I still thought I was dead. I didn't think I'd ever be able to think in the same state of mind that I had before I took it. I had that conviction that I'd never be the same. It was a complete death. In that respect, it's similar to death, but it's not advisable until you get the strength in order to carry that type of load. It takes a lot of strength to fight your way back, mentally, not physically, but mentally. There's this lady back here.

dw2-10:40

Q: Yeah, this is doing an effort to get to what I'm talking about. When you're talking about alcohol or anyone's test or anything like that, when the first you realize is that there's two people or two, whatever it's called, identities, what's next? What's next?

dw2-10:58

Rose: What's next? We're finding a singularity. Now, this isn't necessarily two entities. It's just that you're dichotomizing yourself. There's not two people. This appears to be. In other words, I maintain that... I gave a lecture here a year, six months or a year ago, on the psychology of the observer, which I brought out that the observer is the real person. The view is not the viewer. And if you're watching a dichotomy, neither one of those is you. The you is what's watching. The you is the final awareness that watches all of these But as we watch our behavior, we notice that, as I said, that there's five or six voices that are very easy to identify: sex, power, pride, hunger, longing for life, fighting off death, that thing. And we watch the fighting. If you do a little meditation, you find out that the person indulges too much in anything. Like, suppose he drinks too much booze. Another voice will start to talk and say, Hey, you're going to kill yourself. Not even You better quit drinking. Or you better get something in your stomach besides the liquid. You better get some food. Now, we hear this type of voice going on inside of our head, and we immediately think that that's an angel whispering or something like that.

dw2-12:12

Rose: No, this is the combat of two things that are fighting for your energy, but they're not necessarily entities. They could have entity origin, but it's just two voices that have been pretty well reinforced over a period of years by being rewarded. But The guy that's observing it is what I call the umpire. And then when I first went through this and witnessed the umpire making decisions and saying, Hey, you got to set yourself a discipline. You got to get off of booze completely. You got to quit smoking cigarettes. You got to inhibit this. You've got to eat, but not too much, et cetera. Do you know what I mean? Then you think you found your real self, and you think you're driving the wagon for the first time, but you're not. That's an umpire, and it, in turn, is observable. It has manipulations. It has ways and means of running the show. And that's all it is. It's an umpire. But the person on a spiritual path, as soon as he recognizes the umpire, he thinks he's got it, that he is now in charge. He isn't. He gets beyond being in charge, in fact.

dw2-13:16

Rose: Once he perfects the umpire, he gets behind that. And the real man is the final observer, the one that finally is aware. He looks and he goes back inside of himself. It's like going back to the Like the light that comes out of a camera. You have to go back in. You want to know what is the mind he projects. In other words, if you get into the idea of perception, we see things, but we also project. So that everything we see, man, brings us out. If you look at a color on the wall, chemically, it might not be the color you see. If you look at an object in the retino, it may be upside down, but the mind adjusts it, meaning the mind projects a vision as it should be or what's satisfactory to us and the rest of society. So we project the universe to suit ourselves. And when physicists and philosophers became aware of this, they saw the possibility of the mind creating the whole universe. That's where Jules Fiers came in with this idea saying, Hey, if we want to stop sickness or stuff, we may have to recreate that pattern.

dw2-14:23

Rose: We may have to create a pattern in which there is no sickness. We created that. We put that in. We built in a belief in death. But anyhow, we're restrained from the thing. But anyhow, this is what you do. You keep looking behind. And besides neutralizing something that takes you over, you keep looking behind it until ultimately you become You become one with awareness. That is, there isn't two. You don't become one with anything. You become awareness. And at the moment you become awareness, that's when you're there, too. Any time that you disrupt an ego, there's an enormous amount of energy. That's the reason when a person who say, I watched this happen, and I'm thinking of one specific person related to it, that quit drinking, quit taking dope, quit smoking cigarettes. When he threw the cigarette out on the church steps, went in and beat the head on the floor and asked for salvation and got salvation. And the whole thing was removed almost immediately. No more desire to smoke, no more desire. And the blame was placed on Jesus because the person is addicted to Jesus. But the energy that was released was exalting.

dw2-15:43

Rose: It was ecstasy. I'm knowing that it was free, completely free from that. Now, whatever method is used is good. Whatever method. Just don't pray to me. I don't want to get involved in that. Blame it on Jesus. Well, this is in the idea before you ever see your egos. In other words, we generally think we're perfect. In other words, what happens is a person grows up and he batters about inside the sardine camp. He goes to school, he gets a job, works in a factory, and he already get along. So he thinks, I've got this pretty well figured out. And it's only when he encounters something that he can't have that his other egos are shaken up. In other words, he may fall in love. The party that he falls in love with says, Hey, I can't stand you. Get away from me. Then his ego starts to shake, and he becomes unhappy, and then he evaluates why he's unhappy, and he sees that he's putting himself a whole sandcastle. Now, if you If you don't want to do this, if you don't want to wait for a catastrophe, and you want to advance, again, the expedition of expediting something, then you go back in your past because you always believe that what you're doing now is the only thing you can do.

dw2-17:14

Rose: You believe you're right. Everybody believes what they do now is right. If you go back a few years, and if necessary, go back in early childhood, and everybody invariably recognizes the things they did when they were young, that they were fools. They had a foolish pattern. That's what I call going back on the rerun on the motion picture. You get back to your life, it's pretty much like a roll of film. You can dig it out and run through it again. Then you realize that this pattern from childhood, being a fat head or a certain egotistical twist or being impoverable or something, carried on from childhood right up to the present time. If you're lucky, you'll be able to check what you're doing now. This is the idea. Or you'll be aware of yourself. And when you do, then again, these egos drop. It's just like, suppose you get into a series of fights and all your friends say, Hey, you're wrong. You don't have to get into those fights. You say, Oh, no, I didn't escape before I had a punch that fall in the nose. But you go back in your childhood and you find out some source of paranoia building up.

dw2-18:24

Rose: And it seems as though when you recognize that in your childhood, the The whole scheme of things unravels and you realize that you're on the tail end of a rocket. You've been firing up ever since you've been a kid. You remove the childhood experience and the rest crumbles. You understand what I mean? I'm wondering if you don't make that decision to stop and add it. It doesn't mean it has to be added. Yeah, it's automatic. It doesn't require any great monumental changes of your lifestyle. It's just when you see it, you've had enough of it. That's all. It's a revelation. The fact that you see it as a revelation, with the revelation comes this burst of energy because you're free from it, finally. I'm quite sure some of you have experienced this in hate. One of the things we do in childhood, the children are such sweet little creatures, but they're really bloodthirst. And they've earned the hate. And because that's their only weapon, they're not strong enough to chop the legs off the adults, but they hate people. And they carry this for years. And then in later life, if they've been kicked around enough as children, they'll start kicking somebody else around when they get big.

dw2-19:46

Rose: And if that hate melts, if they can go back in introspection and see that that is regardless of how unfortunate the cause of it was, that it isn't necessary anymore. They're free. Then they go on to something else. They go on to the next ego, the next thing. That it's the dropping of egos that causes these exaltations such as salvationism. And this is the graduation from the instinctive man, the emotional man, using your in terms. And the exaltation between the emotional man and the logical man is the satoria, the wild experience. And the graduation from the The logical man to the philosophic man is the cosmic consciousness experience. So these are caused by the dropping of the intellectual ego. When the intellectual ego drops, that's when the cosmic consciousness. For a breached moment or for hours, whatever it is, you've seen that the universe is perfect, and your vision of it is imperfect previously. For a period of time, you've seen that everything's working in just a way, shall we? So we've had a misconception of it. Yeah. I guess you explain what content you go with it?. When I'm talking about an ego, I'm talking about a specific quality that is erroneous.

dw2-21:16

Rose: Now, ego, Freud had it broken up into a segment of the... To me, it was all foolishness. It all emanated from the end, which was nothing. I mean, we never knew what the it was. It was successful, from which all this other stuff for him up. So the whole structure, in my estimation, the whole Freudian structure is loose. But when we talk of ego, we talk of an egotistical aspect. An egotistical aspect, not ego as opposed to super ego in a psychological evaluation. And for instance, if we have an insatiable sexual drive, that's an ego. We get the idea we're a rooster or something. That's our destiny. You'll hear people say, I've heard this. I'm really shocked when I hear it. Every time I hear it, I'm shocked because it brings me back to the idea that I'm dealing with an animal. And they'll say, When I can't have sex anymore, I want to be dead. To me, the proper thing is when you have to have sex, you're better off dead because you're just got hair on whatever. Bringing more taxpayers into this difficulty. So you comment that you I feel it's just that I get it, it's just a drive.

dw2-22:51

Rose: Right. Sometimes it's a fear. Sometimes it's a fear. We have to drop our fears as well as our push. I understand. You did it through a long time. But by facing it, like we're talking about going back and seeing what your motivation is, then realizing that's not you being motivated. But that's just running the whole energy, the body energy. And then also having the... I call it using milk from thorns, recognizing the fact that we want to identify ourselves instead of pretending that we are going to learn automatically. And You're using this energy then in the process of self-identification, rather than in needless exercise. It only takes once a year to reproduce. You're going to have to doubt nature's ability. Yes.

dw2-23:46

Q: And we can't give why we need the egos or where we can.

dw2-23:49

Rose: They're all necessary. They're all necessary. Unless we have... Excuse me, may I give a voice? That's the strongest I have. But if we didn't have the ego to eat, we wouldn't survive. We have to be programmed. We're nothing much better than a programmed animal until we find what our real cause and motivation is. So, strangely enough, all these robots are programmed to go after the food. And if it's scarce at one time, they may over eat the next time. And the same thing as sex, we're programmed to keep the species going at any cost. And so even the pride, a lot of people, I've noticed a lot of people, especially, have been into drugs. They like to pride themselves in having no pride. This is nonsense. You have to keep your pride until you can walk without it. The majority of people who dump their pride and insist on walking around in filthy clothes, and after a while, they They should realize that it's better to have pride than pinworms and liver troubles. So consequently, all of this has a place. We have to be proud of ourselves. We have to keep our physical appearance up in order to keep the body in one piece until we learn something.

dw2-25:21

Rose: Then when you learn something, it doesn't matter too much. You'll get to learn the pinworm a break if you want to. Even the survival ego. The ego, the idea that we are worth living. Remember, we get the idea we're afraid of death. You have to transcend the fear of death. You have to die. And it's with great reluctance that a person allows himself to die, especially when he thinks he may not come back. You don't enter into it, deliberately enter into your death experience, except maybe in a drug or something like that. But when this happens, you will believe you're dying. And the loss of the ego of death gives you an energy enough that seemingly brings you back from the experience. But there's another ego, yet even beyond that, you can't give up. It has to be taken from you. All these egos are taken from you. Whenever the time is right, why it works so well? I don't know how it works, but it looks like it's a guiding force, a hero, because you give up also the ego of spiritual your mortality. You have to face yourself and know beyond a shadow of a doubt that you don't know anything.

dw2-26:37

Rose: That you don't know whether you're going to survive death. This is a fiction until it's proven. Consequently, when you go through that death experience, that's it. You're entering oblivion, as far as you know. And that's only when you actually have a clear mind and what comes in then is accurate and valid. You have no preconceptions. You give them all your preconceptions. But you don't... People are rushing out now to blow their heads apart, thinking that that will bring in the experience. It won't. It will not do it. The organism has to be strengthened, in fact, for a period of time so we can make the transition and get back. We can always go one way. We need to get back and say, I've been there. That's what helps somebody else. How much of a part do you think that diet and physical health has to do with your eating yourself to do these? I think if you should do things to keep yourself healthy. I went into this myself. I went in an ignorance. I didn't know what was good. I just read books. I did yoga exercises. I quit eating meat, as I said.

dw2-27:56

Rose: Somebody says, the meat's bad for you. The thinking process causes you to have violent thoughts. I went, Okay, that's the form that we'll accept. Then the thing, I'll make myself a laboratory and see what happens. I think it is good, and it also takes care of your health. In other words, if you're going to do something in the line of nutrition or something like that, it's better to be selective, but it is just eat anything. But in the final analysis, it doesn't matter what you eat. In other words, nothing, no food is It didn't itself evil. In other words, I don't see the need to eat meat. I didn't eat meat when I was a kid here, and I think it kept me in a good frame of mind for not having to eat, but also lost up my liver. Sometimes it may even be good to take a beer, drink a beer, brush your kidneys. Nothing is evil in itself. What's evil is when it starts running the show or you get too much of it. If you're too much of a certain chemical or poison. But it's good to have a discipline. It's good to be able to control your diet because you just didn't know that you could control it.

dw2-29:08

Rose: And also, not just to teach yourself anything either. I think some of these diets are damaged. I think the macrobiotic diet may damage some people who have, genetically, a representation of generations of people who ate meat. Whereas perhaps in China, you had many generations of people who never saw meat. So the macrobiotic diet They had been more than they had. You get the American, I think the American, for generations, they were meat eaters. And there's supposedly cases of people dying from trying to project themselves in their macrobody diet. In other words, no diet is spiritual in itself. But it may give you quiescence. It may help you overcome some happen. But that's it. Start yourself and then limit yourself to certain type of diet. Each case is different, as I say. You get some people that thrive on one thing, and it poisons another.

Footnotes

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