1976-0726-Energy-Entities-Lecture-Pittsburgh-Misnamed

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Title	1976-0726-Energy-Entities-Lecture-Pittsburgh-Misnamed
Recorded date	July 26 (or 29), 1976 // or April 6, 1978 or February 4, 1977 (see notes)
Location	Pittsburgh
Number of tapes	2 @ 90 min
Other recorders audible?	Yes
Alternate versions exist?
Source	N
No. of MP3 files	Four files: 37 min; 45 min; 45 min; 45 min
Total time	172 minutes = 2 hrs 52 min
Transcription status	Stub (below)
Link to distribution copy	http://distribution.direct-mind.org/ (need password)
Link to PDF	http://distribution.direct-mind.org/ Or try http://selfdefinition.org/rose/
Published in what book?
Published on which website?
Remarks	MISNAMED - R does not talk about E&E in this meeting. Name comes from meeting on same day
Audio quality
Identifiable voices
URL at direct-mind.org	https://www.direct-mind.org/index.php/1976-0726-Energy-Entities-Lecture-Pittsburgh-Misnamed
	For access to this wiki or the audio files please send an email to: editors@direct-mind.org
Revision timestamp	20241203194842

Notes

Side 3 and 4 are verbatim of side 1 and 2 of 1977-0204-Pittsburgh-February

Either this tape is mislabeled or the other is mislabeled.

Date issues

July 26 (or 29), 1976 // or April 6, 1978 or February 4, 1977 (see above)

Confusion. Another note says "This is being transcribed 1978-0406-Zen-The-Most-Perfect-Psychoanalysis-Pitt

http://www.direct-mind.org/index.php5?title=1978-0406-Group-Meeting-Pittsburgh

Tapes SN

Tape 1 (side 1 = 37 minutes; side 2 = 45 minutes)

Tape 2 (side 3 = 45 minutes; side 4 = 45 minutes)

Audio quality is poor but audible (words are clear).

Telephone spectrum. Playback speed is faster than the recording, raising pitch. Side 1 volume low

Transcription

File sn1

sn1-00:00

Rose: I'll continue where Bill left off. Bill, can you talk about that? I didn't. I don't endorse any particular assisting. I'm pretty well fed up with the brand that's in this offer. I'm pretty well fed up, in fact, with the most Eastern goos that hit the shore with money bags waiting or some other rackets. And I looked into them. I'm not even saying this, I believe. I studied under Zen Master, but I had already achieved the maximum that I thought I could achieve for my lifetime, but I had no language to talk to people. So I made contact with the Zen master who was entirely unknown. And I had heard that there was, at the time, I was a student in Zen at the time, and many might be that's when I followed on the West Coast who had been dabbling. And I was really surprised. You get an idea that people who look after spiritual matters are spiritual-looking people. I've never found this to be true. The most spiritual people I have found in my life, some of them were drums and some of them look like drums. But the young, so-called turk, tuppy generation that can look bland while it between various sessions of dope for sex, to me, is not a spiritual person, although they consider themselves to be very spiritual.

sn1-01:38

Rose: The spiritual man is the man who's been through the meat grinder, and some of them have been through even alcohol use of Alpholec's Anomim says, it's an enlightened magic by reading from his literature. So we're always looking in church for truth, we find hypocrisy. We're looking and we get to satisfy it with the conventional form of hypocrisy at home, so we look and we seek for hypocrisy overseas, and we get it. And so I can tell you, frankly, that Zen is not institutional. Whenever an institution is set up, it begins to detract immediately from Zen. And there's a lot of garbage that goes along with it, like Zen poetry, Zen flower, Zen archery, Zen what does that go for your head? It has nothing to do at all with this. And if you think it has, then entertain yourself. That's your bath. There's a room up front. It's funny when you need to But anyhow, I discovered a few men in my life that I considered genuinely enlightened. One of them had never heard of Zen, and it probably still hasn't heard anything I don't think it's a good technique, but he had reached this with basically mental and spiritual suffering.

sn1-03:07

Rose: And he was a Christian, devout Christian, and so he got to drink it. And then he went to war and destroyed a few Japanese cities, bombing them. And the Bible honored him, and he started to pray. And he never stopped praying because he thought that there was a gap, some ways he couldn't pray. And And here was a Christian nation that followed the teaching of Christ, and that believed that God watched the fall of the spiral, and here was an enormous bomb following, and God wasn't paying any attention. So this perplexed him until it drove him And he was in deep frustration and deep anxiety. And the casual, he might have been pair for his sunny home in Texas. And he kept on praying. And his wife He left him, his family, his kids left him, and he became a bum. And finally, he got a job. He had to work here. So every time he got a job, even the slack would hit him. And one particular time, he asked God to kill him, and prayed for God to kill him. And then he put his head down on the desk and passed out.

sn1-04:19

Rose: He woke up in the hospital. And in a period of a week or 10 days or so, he had... He experienced all the experience, the maximum experience that any human and mind can experience. I heard him give an account of it in Akron, Ohio. And we were beating with a bunch of mathematicians and engineers from Farstone. The man introduced me to him, or he's how we met at, an engineer from Farstone, a research physicist back. And they sat around staring at him, wondering why he had it. He had a very beautiful wife waiting on him. And this had happened after his experience. His wife never came back, but he's been married. And they even picked at the wife a little bit to see if she would give them some insight into why he latched on to this bum. He looked like crazy. The crazy. He was pretty well-cooked in food. But regardless, I knew that what the man was saying was true. He didn't care. He didn't care. He didn't care. He was leaving the shop. So The reason we're mentioning this is the fact that Zen is not the only path. There isn't such thing as an only path.

sn1-05:35

Rose: The only path is inside yourself. Whatever it takes to get inside of you and find out through yourself who you are, that is your path. And if Zen does it, that's good. And if I'm going to a monastery in some Buddhist or Christian monastery, or going to jail, or going to an alcoholics anonymous, that's good. But the thing is, the key The key factor involved is that you have to have a dynamic, sincere desire to know yourself, regardless of what that knowing is. And you have to follow through on. And it doesn't hurt the phrase. But because the system is so much like as Zen, the language that I chose is death. Now, as he said, I'm advising them to sling away from the words then because it becomes corrupt with uxers. Zen can't be bought or sold. The truth cannot be bought or sold. No man should eat on the order. He should go work in a mill or work in a factory and feed himself. And that's what I've done in the and so I was able to retire and waste a little of my time in this fashion, why I didn't talk.

sn1-06:52

Rose: But I want to read, but here's what I did. I'm going to read a little bit from the book by Paul's on Gryff. I just picked it up. Now, Bo Dan Boodya sent me this through the mail. I just got it a couple of days ago. And I said, The Gryffian system is very similar to the Zen system, except that there was no... There's an implication of man number four, but no real proof, or let's say, I couldn't tie anything together to show the gerber you got to get there. But anyhow, this man has an excerpt from Aldous Huxley, Devils of the Blue Diamond. I don't know if you've read it or not. If you have, it won't hurt to hear it again. But this pretty much explains the reason I came into Pittsburgh, and the reason I came into University of Fitts, he started to open up little groups in different universities. It was because Athens had opened a few eyeballs, just a shade of where you get pride open a bit more. Most people, in the generations past and the generations to come, there will be very little interest in enlightenment. When I went to college, anything but the good old old old old old old old old You didn't dare talk about anything but Christianity or something like that.

sn1-08:21

Rose: So if there was any speculation was considered crackpot. And we'll go back to that. You'll go back to the police roll and close doors. And of course, the people who know will, you know, suddenly steal away in the bush and disappear. From poppy to gerari, from Andean coca to Indian hemp and Siberian agari. Every plant or bush or fungus capable of ingested of stupifying or exciting or evoking visions has long since been discovered and systematically employed. Well, he didn't mention LSD, so it was a new... The fact is strongly significant, for it seems the truth that always and everywhere human beings have felt the radical inadequacy of their personal existence, the misery of being their insulated selves and not something else, something quieter, something in words worthy in phrase, far more deeply interfused. Exploring the world around him, primitive man tried all things in health as to that which is good. For the purpose of self-preservation, the good is every edible fruit and leaf, every wholesome seed, root, nut. But in another context, the context of self-discontition and the urge to self-transcendence, the good is everything in nature by means of which the quality of individual consciousness can be changed.

sn1-09:45

Rose: Such drug-induced changes may be manifestly for the worse, may be at the price of present discomfort and future addiction, degeneration, and premature death. All of this is the no moment. This book was written years ago. I don't know exactly when, but 10 or 20 years old at least. What matters is the awareness, if only for an hour or two, if only for a few minutes, of being someone or more often, something other than the insulated self. In modern times, beer and other toxic shortcuts to self-transendence are no longer officially worshiped as gods. Theory has undergone a change, but not practice, for in practice, millions upon millions of civilized men and women continue to pay their devotions not to the liberating and transfiguring spirit, but to alcohol, to agres, to opium and its derivatives, and to the barbiturates and other synthetic additions to the age old catalog of poisons capable of causing self-transendence. And in every case, of course, what seems a God is actually a devil. What seems a liberation is in fact an enslavement. The self-transendence is invariably downward into the less than human, the lower than person. This raises a very important, difficult question.

sn1-11:04

Rose: To what extent, in what circumstances is it possible for man to make use of the descending road as a way to spiritual self-transendence? At first sight, it would seem obvious that the way down is not and can never be the way up. But in the realm of existence, matters are not quite as so simple as they are in our beautifully tidy world of words. In actual life, a downward movement may sometimes be made at the beginning of an ascent. When the shell of the ego has been cracked and there begins to be a consciousness of the subliminal and physiological otherness underlying personality, it sometimes happens that we catch a glean, but apocalyptic of that other otherness, which is the ground of all beings. So long as we are confined within our insulated selfhood, we remain unaware of the various nut cells with which we are associated. The organic nut self, the subconscious the nut self, the collective nut self of the psychic medium in which all are thinking and feeling has their existence, and the imminent and transcendent nut self of the spirit. Any escape, even by a descending road out of the insulated selfhood makes possible at least a momentarium awareness of the nut self on every level, including the highest.

sn1-12:22

Rose: I realized that this was as it was a degenerative influence. So it was fought. But if you can catch them before they became addicted, they had to have a peak of something great. They couldn't verbalize it. And when they were conscious after having it ingested in or wherever they took it. They forgot how to describe it. They were aware of it while they read it. But there was the discipline, the years of discipline that a mystic might go into in order to know what he's doing when something like that happens. They didn't take the time to bother them. So the result was a favorite. But this answers the question of why I decided to open my mouth and do a little talking. Basically, I'd say the difference in my philosophy and some of the others. There are other philosophies, incidentally, that are not just cut and dry systems of words. In other words, there are esoteric philosophies that try to find this definition of man, the source of man, essence. And I think the Gurgetian system points very strongly this way. There are very mystical parts of established religions, very difficult to find. And some of them are even penalized by the religion in which they live.

sn1-13:59

Rose: For instance, St. John de Krux was penalized for talking too much about his physical experiences. But I think every major religion has that essence for it. There have been men in it that divotly tried to find out and were able to have the courage to shove aside the garbage and say, This stuff is absurd. There's a certain thing in this religion that's absurd, but there has to be something behind all this universe. It has to be a God or something. But regardless, there are very few people who write, and this This is the thing that I complained about when I was younger. And in fact, when I had my experience. It was years later that I encountered Bucky's Cause Me Conscious. I mentioned it in the book I wrote. Minister's wife gave it to me. She heard me talking. She said, You should read this book. Until the time I read it, I had no idea anyone had experienced it. I thought that I was a solitary creature. And then I began to meet other people. But what it goes back to is the majority of mankind, we got a strong line, a dichotomy. The majority of mankind is vegetative.

sn1-15:16

Rose: The majority is... We're going to call them mechanical men. I call them robots. The majority of mankind are robots. And if you don't believe, you're going to get down on the street and talk to your your dad's, your grandfather, your grandfather, the old men in the family, and ask them what they've done in their life. Ask them what they've done in their life and what they think about it, whether it's worthwhile. And Get out on the street, every place you go. Get out on the beer joint. Why people drink? Most people drink. If they drink to knock themselves out. They drink because their subconscious is still chirping a bit, saying, Hey, you have a problem. Why are Why are you working? Why are you working in a game you can't win? Why are you bringing children in the earth that maybe you'll regret you brought them in? How did you got them here? We dream that certain things will happen. When a person gets married and the babies are so beautiful and all that thing, but after a while, you find out you've been a doorway. You haven't been a creator, you've been a doorway to let people in.

sn1-16:25

Rose: So what I'm getting at is another statement of humanity that's curious. I think some of the people in your religious institutions are sincere. And I say some, I don't mean all, because I studied myself to be a priest. And I'll say, frankly, the biggest part of them were Dharma box, and it wasn't too far from here, and I won't mention that place because you may have friends there. There were people who became adjusted to prison life. Well, one place they cracked rocks, another place they chatted the circles. But it's still the same thing. They get fed, they get placed to sleep, no worries. Someway or another, their sexual life is taken care of. Maybe it's the most ideal way, but it becomes the institutional life. But there are a few people in those institutions that I met a few who are genuinely sincere, and sometimes they even get so far as to discover something and write it down and write a book about it. But these This is a very small percentage of humanity. So when you're talking at the subject that we're talking about, it's very unpopular. It's like democracy, we can decide vanity, and I'm insane because I am not in the groove with the rest of humanity, and I care less.

sn1-17:48

Rose: I delight in the privacy of my sanity. Not many people follow me. But we have several conceptions. We have several conceptions. This is supposed to be a dialog, and I'm going to shut up pretty soon so you talk. But I want to get a few notes off while I still think about them. But there are conceptions, for instance, the brave conceptions, such as, I'm going to the place everyone else is. This is very brave answer. Where are you going? Where are you going? Where is this? I'm the same as you. And where is this person going? Well, I'm going where everybody else is going. They can be pretty sure of There's evidence, especially since Kevler Ross and Raymond Moody have been doing work on life after death, stuff is now being brought up. This research is in mythicism and Civitas knew 10,000 years ago. That is the difference in the death style of people. Moody and Kevler Ross have pointed it out in their book. If you can look and see it, there are about four different grades of life after death. And it's a case of history showing that there are some that reach certain stages of consciousness in death.

sn1-18:58

Rose: Others do not. In other words, Some meet their relatives, some meet a state, a mental state, some meet geometric figures. And these are all those categories, the people who die and return to say anything. Now, there's another category who don't return to say anything. So you take your guess on what happens there. And I mean, I've talked to a few who came back, and there was something there. They had no vision. In fact, Augie here and I went into a call one time. He had a heart attack, and he approached me and he says, What happens to you after you died. I knew he had a heart attack, and I said, Well, you should know. Tell me, what happened to you? He said, Nothing. He said it was black, and that was all. No memory. So I figured, why push the point. I knew his lifestyle, and this was typical, his lifestyle. He had a heart attack later. His daughter was getting married, and he went up and got drunk and danced all night. He dropped dead at three o'clock in the morning. But we go back, and people are very... It's amazing. We're intelligent creatures.

sn1-20:03

Rose: We're out here building. Some of these people may be studying engineering. They'll be building dams and bridges and construction of fantastic dimensions. And you know nothing of yourself. You know absolutely nothing about who you are. I mean, essentially, your body. But the body is going to wind up in the mortuary. And very few of us wanted to say that that's all it took. Very few of us also agree to believe what they tell you down in the church. We've come to the conclusion, watching the private lives of the same, I mean, the both saints, that they don't believe what they preach. They do everything quite wrong with it. But We wind up with very clever little definitions of what we are. Some people will say, Well, basically, I don't believe we're anything but an animal. Sometimes I think they should say vegetables. I'm going to be more of a cousin, see. Or a soul. An animal could get away a lot of stuff because he's not supposed to be smart. But some people say, We are a soul, or we have a soul. I would like to pose the question, are we an animal with a vegetable soul?

sn1-21:21

Rose: Because we don't use it. We need to have a capacity. There are all sorts of books and sacred writing and stuff like that That everybody professes to believe in, from the folk down to Anita Bryant. But there's no action. There's no action taking, just talking. So that everybody blesses their pleasure. You bless your marriage. You bless the wine before you drink it. That's the end of it. But we're basically vegetating. We act in a vegetating manner by having high pre-test. And do you think you have a soul because you want one? Everybody wants one. And I've heard remarks say, Well, I wouldn't want that heaven. Oh, no, I wouldn't want that heaven. That's not for me. What's my choice is that? I don't know if they have a choice. Okay, then we get into this idea of analyzing. We take the man who analyzes. Some people try to do that. Psychology is a good medium. I think, in fact, you find enlightenment through psychology. True psychology. But what is tree psychology? We picked up an old book out of the archive. It had a zero. The other day, I'm not going to tell you what the name of it is, because we make publishers.

sn1-22:40

Rose: We make it there before. But this was a man, unlettered man, a very brilliant hypnotist, to me to say, at the turn of the century. He wrote a book, and I picked it up when I was a kid. I had advised some of the people in the group here to get a copy. I would read it. I said, This man knew the human mind. It's better than anybody I've ever encountered. And there's bails and bails and bails of pretentive literature put out by mechanical psychologists, people who want to take ink blocks and monkey gestures and dog tracks and make of them a science. Instead of going directly and knowing how to go directly into the mind of man. And some hypnotists can do this. Well, he said then, his complaint then was that the alien, that's what they called them in those days, they didn't have the lofty title today, and they weren't turned loose to put us in. They testified in trials. They had a certain amount of power, but not quite as much as they have now. They have their own jails now. But he said then, these millionists who were a curse on humanity.

sn1-23:47

Rose: And I was amazed at the courage he had, because he was not a... Everybody likes to hear that when a man criticizes a man with a degree, that he has a degree himself. Gertrude, incidentally, had those degrees. Gertrude was one of the most astute psychologists I think the world has known. He could do things with a human mind. This is the proof that's in the pudding. Can your psychiatrist, very few psychiatrists can even empathize, to give you an example. But Can a psychiatrist walk out of his body if he seemed 200 miles away from me? Or can a psychiatrist knock you off your feet by concentrating on one of your nerve centers? And these are done by the Oriental, that is the Tibitin, Oriental psychologist. Do you feel secure? Do people feel secure? Are they satisfied? Or do they just put it off? And I see a lot of this. I see cases, I respect, where people kept putting off. Well, when I retire, I'll get into that stuff. I won't have anything else to do. The whip will be burnt out, and I'll put the whole thing in the looking for a job. So And then by that time, they got their cholesterol piled up in their blood veins, and they don't know where they're coming or going, but they go through the motion.

sn1-25:07

Rose: So you see them teetering in the church. But what do people have? What I see about humanity is a mad scramble. People go after careers. And We go after piling up money or piling up a house someplace. Getting a house or getting something so-called heritage. Hopeless heritage is what we're leaving our children. Actually hopeless. There is no hope in this world, this country. Now, of course, this is my personal opinion. I can't argue if you want to argue about it. My belief is that this sardine can is getting so vicious, and as soon as you get a nickel, you're going to have to get a strong box, someone to grab. And it could be a government agent, it could be a cop on the corner, it could be a gangster. But everything is this idea of dedicating ourselves to our children or dedicating ourselves to some career. I see these people winding up, discarded like dishrags in the corner. They go through, they get disgusted with our own professional people. Most of them get disgusted. I've talked to hundreds of them. I mentioned the meeting we had in Cougar Balls with the man who had found enlightenment.

sn1-26:37

Rose: Those people were all scientists. And the older they got, the more they became disgusted with their very work. They were proud of it, their youth, and wondered what they were doing when they got to be about 40. They couldn't get away. They'd like to go out and work with a second shovel of their change. They couldn't get away because we get trapped in our security, our security. Well, anyhow. To me, it may seem psychotic. A lot of people accuse you of this. If you're looking after values, spiritual values, you're accused of being an escapist, a coward. You're afraid the The robot is afraid to go out and start looking at his inside. He's a coward if he does. He's supposed to believe he's a robot, go out, and duly, rust himself out, and collapse, and let somebody else prosper off the fertilizer. So I'm pretty much in the minority on this respect. So what has happened, though, in my life is I went out and put some effort out, and I did it in very difficult times. You people have a certain... You have a socialistic security, which we didn't quite enjoy when I was a kid.

sn1-27:53

Rose: There was still an element of starvation or struggle. Today, you can get on relief, and they'll take care of you pretty much, and you can bum around quite a bit. But to me, I had to search for my spiritual values while scratching for a living, and I mean, sometimes starving. But I've put up with it, and I've turned a lot of things aside. I've turned a lot of opportunities aside. And made up my mind, I'd accept nothing until I found it, and I found it. And I found the answer, which satisfied me. And I'm not saying this to bait you with curiosity about what the four of them is, I won't give you the four of them. That's the nice thing, to cocculate. But I'm willing to talk about everything else. I'm going to open this up for... The reason But the reason I'm open to this up for a dialog is because I can get up here and I've talked. I've come here down through the ears and talked about a direction who would lead, to gently lead an audience into curiosity about defining yourself. I have spent three or four years arguing with great reason about the unreasonable of the reason, with great emotion about the foolishness of emotion.

sn1-29:12

Rose: And I think the time has come to graduate, while it's I want to give you just some simple answers to your level. And the only way you can do that is for you to ask questions. And what you're curious about, then we can test on that and start to go from there. In which country is it good to be living in the United States? It's not America. It's hell here, so any hell is good. It's good. There's books here. Maybe there's no books in Russia, I don't know, or China. There may be hell there, too. I presume it's going to be hell any place you go because we're in a lot of tension now. Tension is the name of the game now. But tension is one of the factors, as you know, for the production of life. So if you have access, if there's a country in existence where you don't have access to people who compare those with, then you're somewhat You're really alone, you're a hermit in the desert. Yeah, I believe we're here because it's supposed to be. I believe I'm here. I used to like to travel and think, Oh, I'll brought me some wise men, that thing.

sn1-30:13

Rose: And I found the wisest... I did find a wise man, I found a wise woman, my wife. I would like to see you define psychology-defined standards, and say maybe an opposite way with your looms-defined standards. Oh, yeah. Psychology's definition of sanity, conformity. How would you recognize standard? How would you recognize it? Well, you can only recognize sanity by... You can't just define it and approach it. What you have to do is retreat from garbage. In other words, it's giving an example, it's sane not to take poison. In other words, it's more sane not to take poison. That's enough. I have to say you want to poison yourself momentarily to see what it's like to be healthy. But I'm going to put some dope or something. But you do this for the whole scheme of life. The whole picture of life has to be a place this way, in which our definitions, our previous definitions of sanity change. The world's definition changes. The real sanity's definition never changes. Sanity is that which is. Sanity is the state of mind which is closest to the essence of man, not a system of apology for the appetite of the man.

sn1-31:31

Rose: Modern definitions of sanity are conformity to appetite. In other words, if you're a good taxpayer, an unprincipled or master, indulging in anything that comes your way, this is sanity today. It wasn't sanity at the turn of the century. So this is the same as truth. Scientific truth is full of psychological truth. The definition changes in the books, and it later is just proven. People later... In my book, I use the word phlogistam in chemistry, a major chemistry in the college, and we read that where years ago, they believed that there was because you need to process it due to something called flow system. And that was taught as the truth. The students of that time, as the students of today, sit in the classroom and are too busy doing the exercises. This is the way to keep you from thinking. I do not approve of system of having different classes in the daytime. A man needs a whole day to think out a chapter in chemistry. You can't do it if you got to be running to the math class, you got to be running over to musical appreciation class, which a chemist doesn't need, but you got to think because you got to keep his bum living.

sn1-32:45

Rose: So in the meantime, you got your mind shook up to a point where you're never allowed to think the problem out and find the truth. You're continually be deviled and scattered so that you don't look beneath the surface and find out that the fellow at the final group of what he's talking about. So this is it, modern education. I mean, he does tell us what he's talking about because he copied it from somebody else. But he didn't think it out for himself. So the whole system, some of the writers call it paradigm. You get in the scientific paradigms in which people set up a set of symbols and they seem to work. Then they build on it until it blows up. And the result is that some people, like Chilton Pears, think that all of our sickness, all of our lack of health, all of our misery is caused by the belief that some of these paradigms have been set up. And it suggests, possibly, that we dump the language and the symbols and go back to starting all over again with a new set of symbols. But the sanity itself comes from the amazing thing about my estimation of real sanity.

sn1-33:48

Rose: It comes from looking inside yourself. And when you start to read books, I tried this when I was young, you get a psychology book. That's how it comes run into this. I want to show you by the man in the I pick up these psychology books and I find 30, 40 years ago, a fellow write a book and say, Well, there are seven qualities of human mind. He was an authority because there's nobody else big enough to shut him up. And he was an authority of, so I think it was the name of the fellow. He had 74. Another four comes along and says, No, there's no other, it's not seven. That's 2018 or something. Then income the Jewish Mafia in Europe. So the whole line of psychiatrists and psychologists in Europe, Freud, Adler, Frankl, all these people were packagers. They were running a fawn shop. And the result is that they had a clever little system. And they confused the Western civilization collectively more than any other school of thought by trying to package something and put it out for sale and set up a set of clinics, incorporated clinics, rather than over the earth or over America.

sn1-34:58

Rose: And the result is we got words like psychoanalysis, which means little or nothing. Freud goes back in, for instance, as I said, the definition of man, according to Freud, is somebody who is divided into certain parts, like a super angle and And L'Ou, I don't know. I can't remember. Because they didn't mean that much to me. These emanate from a thing called It. It might be a comic strip. It reminds you of a comic. What is it? Don't ask. Don't ask. That's for business territory. That's anything if you don't know. Yes. Well, it's obviously. Okay, I'll tell you why. I'll tell you why. Freud peddled psychoanalysis. What was that in the... ? No, that was psychotherapy. I don't know if that was Adler or... I think it was Adler. But Frankl had a logotherapy. And I was very deeply aroused in a moment when I first read the first chapter of his book, because he said, Man's pursuit, man lives. The purpose behind man's existence is his desire for will for meaning. And I thought, Oh, a psychiatrist is ready to get up on the real motive of mankind, which I believe that all people live to find out why they live.

sn1-36:19

Rose: Some successfully shut it out. But he invests a word, and then he makes it called up. And as a man himself, thought more of a bundle of papers when he was in the prison camp than he did his wife. He come to this bundle of papers and they took her in the gas chamber. Well, maybe he made a good trade. I don't know. Something has to go to something. Would you say? It just seems a bit of a simplification. Sure. Yeah. I don't see the image of psychology as so much as saying, Man, I just.

File sn2

sn2-00:00

Rose: I agree. I agree that there is a young man effort. I don't see humanistic psychology as so much saying that man should be sound of these people. I see humanistic psychology as breaking out of it, attempting to break out of it. I agree. I agree that there is a youngian effort. I'm thinking of Mazlone. Well, I don't know too much about Mazlone. I've heard that. I've heard that he's... I see it's so... Yeah. But these aren't the people. You know who's calling... Sure, sure. But these people, these people aren't known. Who's calling the shots in this country today? Hein? No, Skanearians. It depends where you're at. Listen, wherever you're at in school and wherever the books are, you go down for a job or you take a governmental attitude. The thing is passed out to the police. The reason we got pornographic shops all over this country is Skanearians philosophy. Masturbate the lions and they won't cause trouble. Yes, sir. This stuff doesn't have to be an accident. It comes from Washington. There are all these big moves come from Washington. Okay, when people, psychology is just Skinner and Freud, then it makes sense to throw psychology at.

sn2-01:13

Rose: Oh, I'm not throwing out. I'm trying to clarify. I'm not saying to our interests of people, I'm only harping on the bad news. You can bring up the goodness. Yeah, that's what I mean. Well, my point is not to tell you you're right. I'm not You can tell yourself that it's the reason. I'm trying to point out maybe you're perfect, but the rest of these people here may not be. But I maintain that we're And this is a trend. I'm not saying it started now either. It doesn't matter where you go in history. There's been powers that pretended to know something about the human mind. There have been Lynch doctors before there were psychologists. The priests were the psychologists in medieval Europe back to the time of crazy. And Lord knows how they handled it. And they gave us a lot of... Well, they gave us the guilt complex. They managed to add to their list of mental troubles. But the modern psychologists, of course, they're building institutions to house the people that are driving crazy. I'm not exaggerating. That's my profound belief that they are making them. They are encouraging behavior, and as I'm thinking the younger people, in the absolute disregard for the consideration for the innocence of children and that thing, in which you'll have a race of animals, and you'll need institutions to house those animals, and you'll need good, healthy people to waste their lives to take care of them.

sn2-02:48

Rose: Is that what you think about Youngian movement? No, no, no. I said I have a great, a lot of respect for the young and moving. And don't you think it's a somewhere? I'm talking about young. I don't know who perverts it. If anybody does. But I'm saying Young himself. The stuff that I've read about Young, I have great respect for young. Don't you think that's where we see the community that's working? I seem to... You know what? I'm wondering, I'm curious about what you seem to be more interested in debating somebody that's nice, somebody that isn't nice, as opposed to trying to find out about yourself. I This is the point. It's good. I know that there's a Youngian movement in Pittsburgh. There is a movement in Pittsburgh. But I don't know how aptly this handles the job of discovering yourself. I can give credit for this much. At least they are meeting and they are doing some community confrontation of some sort, which is a good direction. And if that's what the Youngian movement is all over the world, then I say, That's good. I don't know what Youngian self intended Yes. How hard would you say this at the time of light?

sn2-04:05

Rose: How long do you have to start? Well, you got a slide rule? I don't know what you're saying. Then I would have to take your personal factors involved, and we'd have to take a few years to get into those. How far your head will stretch, how long you're going to live. Okay, I'm going to ask you this, then once you become enlightened, can you lose it? No. No. There's nothing to lose. I mean, if you don't continue to search, will you move away? What would you search for if you found everything? You Until you have to keep... I would say, I would imagine if you constantly have to keep growing. How would you grow if you're at the end of the road? So you're saying you come to an end of a road at a certain age? At any age, yeah. At any age, and then you just stop there. Well, if there's nothing to know, we're talking about a road of achievement, and if there's nothing more to learn, then that's the end. Yes. Well, we'll live Why would you have to apply what you know now? Why would you have to apply? What would you do with the build houses?

sn2-05:21

Rose: No. You did your own. Well, yeah. But in a sense, you're right, because you do have to apply it if you want to tell somebody else. That's the only place where you apply. But it has no value. This is a mistaken thing. I hear this. It's like a little saying, unity. It's a little book. You put out better business. The implication is join unity, you have better business. There is no utility. It's like a little saying, unity. A little book, they put out, better business. The implication is join unity, you have better business. There is no utility. Whenever any religion or any psychological movement, outside of just sanity, outside of just knowing more about yourself and just being clearer in your head. Outside of that, there should be no utility. People say, What will this do for me? What's it supposed to do for me? You can't apply it to making money. Everybody wants to apply it to twist a little bit to make a sales technique out of it and zap their neighbor. They're selling it for a project. Doesn't Zet put emphasis on harmony with everything? No. Being in harmony with everything. You don't have to say you didn't be in harmony.

sn2-06:44

Rose: All you have to do is die before the same time. That's the only time you're in harmony. If you want your ego to stop. That's the hippie dream. That's a hippie dream. That's the hippie dream. That's the hippie dream. Where you're performing the future self. Alan Watts. Yeah, that's true. Alan Watts wrote a Zen, and he had a concession. Incidentally, I knew that the Zen master that Watts talked to him, which was Sokian. Sokian was Sook Yee, and has done a master. He was another import, lived over here, tried to establish a group always white. He came here too young to be enlightened, and he preached enlightenment at the age of 19, and kept on preaching. There's It's one of the common denominations of juhus, to tell people, just keep on with your dissipations, your deviations, or whatever you're doing, but continue to chant this thing and put your dick on the basket. And pretty soon, you'll become so agreeable, everybody will love you. The Earth is going to be a revolution. Everybody's going to be happy, and you're going to radiate this. And pretty soon, everybody else around you will be chanting. And the next thing you know, you won't have to work anymore.

sn2-08:04

Rose: You can do the chant, getting what you want. That's another chant. Get me something by chant. I understand. When you put in to have some concrete. It didn't end the taking care of the line. When you make one separate project, it didn't really matter. Right. Right. Right. Well, you did not write anything on the subject. You did not write anything on the subject. No. What did you read? Well, I just have an opinion that it's something that maybe I'm going to take something that I'm not good at it because you don't get to make a point and that's it. I'm telling you this, you're wrong. Because, and again, I don't like to be... I'm not saying this to be autocratic or anything of that sort, but I have to. That's the only way I can approach it, because this is a result of not only an experience, but if you read the book, if you read Ramana Maharshi, Ramana Maharshi cuts it very clearly for me. There's a think on cosmic consciousness in which a person is in the space and it's a state that is ecstatic of beauty, that he sees the beauty of the world on this earth.

sn2-09:26

Rose: And if you read it, this is the bliss of the mystics. But there's a state beyond that. And Ramana Maharshi describes the ecstatic condition as cosmic consciousness, same as the identical of William Bucky, Richard Bucky book, and his description, which the cosmic consciousness is the hajibi kibala samadhi. No, kibala, nirvabhulpa samadhi. Kibala, nirvabhulpa samadhi. Okay. This is, he's dropping a bucket into the bottom of the He brought this analogy. He dropped the bucket into the bottom of the well. And this is the mind in glimps. He'll be everything in his breast. At any time, he could pull that bucket back up and put it back in the circulation. The human beings will back to look in the middle. Now, there's a Sahhaji getting there with a couple of them on it. It was a step beyond, but there's nothing beyond it. You'll know why this is being done, and you're hearing this scripture. The river flows into the ocean, and there was no return. In other words, when you reach Sahajit never a couple of them off, and then if they knew the same, this is the equivalent of... And I'm not going to use the word satori because satori is abuse.

sn2-10:46

Rose: I use particularly the word enlightenment because the tori is a momentary wow. That's how it's described in all the writings. There's nothing in profound experience. But this thing of joining the river to the ocean means that the soul of man becomes one with the soul of God, and there is no other identification after that time. Your personality, the person that you'd like to think you are, which is basically we have a belief in belief. We are not. We have a belief in belief. So you're saying the point you're playing when you're sorry is to remember that's the three of them. I use the word God, but I don't like to use any word I can't be defined. And I can't define the word God for you because it's used in West Virginia's cursory. They don't know anything about the other part of it. But I It's misused. Everybody's got a different definition. I'm looking for it as a personal being. It's going to whisper something in your ear. It's going to show up that there's some of these honor boys, and when they die, twist them off to some paradigm. The conception that you pick it up from this is the God be is an absolute.

sn2-12:08

Rose: This is not a personality. This is not a personality. There is no place to go beyond that. Now, where does God go? That's a question of science. When we don't even know who we are, it's a question of where we go in the wisdom of God or something like that, so it would be beyond our comprehension. That was an example of how the river goes into the ocean. It no longer goes any place. Yes, it loses its identity. It's there, forever there, but it loses its identity. In other words, the Ohio River flows into the Gulf of Mexico. When it gets down there, you can't identify which part of that water is the Ohio River. Can you free your metaphor back to with a person. Once a person reaches enlightenment, is this change his interaction with the world in any way? Well, there's an automatic change because things don't have the same value. That's all. I don't think it would be considered by social standards, anything worse than what behavior you had before. When I'm trying to look for the other thing that is from Martin, I think that the person who is in that, the one thing that I've said earlier, I think, is really a part of it is the fact that.

sn2-13:40

Rose: And I wonder what you think about it. Well, I don't think you should project anything. See, this is one of the mistakes that people get into when they have certain preconceptions about holiness. You shouldn't go into holiness without a preconception of holiness. In other words, we like God. You hear people saying, I love God, and God loves me. They're lying. They don't talk about it. They're talking about something, they don't know if God has 24 legs or 16 eyes or if he's up there on a cloud, or if he's in absolute condition, a preacher, or has this. So then they start to gage man creates God in his own image and likeness. We give him human qualities and say, He loves us. He might love us like we love sure. That would be compassion when he gets us out of the road. I think of it like I'm trying to think. What I value is a way of interacting with people. Don't worry about people. Don't worry about people. Be concerned of yourself. They're going to have to make it on their own. You may help one or two, but I mean, don't worry about interacting with people.

sn2-14:58

Rose: In the fact, you can't help when you're concerned of them. If I was concerned about saying flattering things that are making everybody feel good, telling you all that you're doing exactly the right thing and that thing, it's my time to waste it. That's all. I guess you can look at the way I define it. You're going to change it on the other side. I didn't say long enough. You haven't defined it yet. I guess I mean it as it's a way of doing things, not saying that you have to help save everybody. The method. The method, yeah. Just an attitude between people that doesn't quit yourself about other moments. I don't want to do any harm. Every case is different. Sometimes you can give a man a dime for a bowl of soup and say he's like 50 cents. But other times, you give him 50 cents for that bowl of soup and you'll make him worse. He may get dependent. He may become real about it. You may be starved. He may become in life. It's hard to fill. It's compassionate. That's what I say. It's easy to get up or it's nice to get up and say nice things.

sn2-16:14

Rose: Everybody else is your nice thing. This is a jungle. This is a jungle. Sharpen your teeth. Excuse me, nice. I understand what What you mean by not being able to understand me in terms of your own experience? I keep getting a slight limp as you keep talking, just water in the front. And have we reached this point? I'd walk in like a car, but I assume you say you have reached it. Why is there a concern towards telling other people? I mean, I keep getting the idea of a slight limp, I guess, that you would be totally happy if you were not having a bad time. You would be content. Well, first of all, first of all, Because the contentment is finally coming to the end of your struggle. As far as for any intense happiness, there's been a blessing of happiness connected with it. Now, as far as for people, the reason for talking to other people was a commitment I made before I found anything. I was very angry, and I was in my 20s. I didn't find anything until I was 30. And for these two, I think it happened. But I went for over 10 years running from gurus to guru and book to book, and found quacks, and moneymakers, and perverts, and anything imaginable in the guise of truth.

sn2-17:40

Rose: And the longer I searched, the more enraged I became. I used to say, we got a pure food and drug law. There's nothing wrong with poisoning the minds of children. This is what it is. The truth, religion should be true. They have no right coming out with a poppy car. I mean, they do. Maybe olifies and fairy stories are good for people who can't understand anything but olifies or fairy stories. So maybe we should retreat and let them fell, put them to sleep, keep them happy for a time in death. They go out easy. I don't care. What is good? But myself, I became in rage. I said, Hey, there must be people that want to find something Every place you go, you find coding. If I find out anything, I'll make it available. So I created a vector. When this was a firing part. And I automatically tried, as soon as it happened, to talk to people. But of course, acid hadn't arrived on the scene yet, and we have to lose the people that thought it was the people that thought I was nuts. Now, there's a few people who take acid that don't know that they're nothing.

sn2-18:44

Rose: What do you think about public ? Well, I don't know where it starts. My biggest complaint comes from colleges, of course. But I see that your whole educational system has become a... What is this? There's a certain law that is concerned of complexity brings complexity. If you get a complex educational structure, then people try to keep themselves employed. And then they try to give themselves rank, generals, colonels, lieutenants, et cetera. Master VA degree, master degree, PhD, all this thing. And then Then there's a movement starts. If there's no wisdom behind it, it's strictly unionism. Keep these kids from becoming bricklayers. Keep these kids from becoming doctors. The AMA will block them out. The louriers will try to keep them becoming louriers and that thing. The real thing behind education is it's political, too. There's a lot of politics in education. It doesn't matter how much you know today, where you're subsidized by if you belong to some minority group or if you're crippled, you may get a lot better chance of going through. If you got some handicaps, you're half nuts. If you've been in the penitentiary, you got a lot of chance to get a scholarship, then if you study hard, if you just did on your parents, people paying their way through.

sn2-20:15

Rose: Because I know they're putting people through. I have a personal case where people are going through college because they've been in the penitentiary. They're stuck to that. So the result is this is one aspect. The other aspect is authority as opposed to learning. In other words, that teacher keeps you so darn busy that you can't question whatever course it is. So we adopt whatever psychology, whatever sociology is going on at the time, and we swallow it up, lying in the sinker. And then we go out and preach it, and we think we're archangels ourselves because we're carrying these good tidings for some other, well, down the road. And the result is we have people trying to get a PhD to get a simple job. You can make the same amount of money working in the mill. And you wind up at the age of 30 as a dish rag unfit for marriage unfit for anything else, but you know a hell of a lot. See? But you're unfit to even reproduce because there's nothing healthy about the system at all. And we go whenever we do make a change, we rebel against this here repression.

sn2-21:21

Rose: When I was younger, there was a lot of sexual repression in college. Now there's no repression. So then it works just the opposite. There's too much legal. There's too much encouragement of wasting of energy and time. So I think it's basically the worst part starts in your colleges. But I see it permeating. It's going into high schools, too. The high schools have become institutions. I don't know. That's the one thing I think is that we should be allowed. People want to study science should be allowed to study science and shouldn't have to study music and art appreciation and keep a bunch of other people that they're not interested in on the payroll. The courses should be such that you can go through and take a solid course of physics or chemistry in your line, study, come out with a certain expertise, get paid for. Then if you want to go back and study polymer chemistry, okay, go back and study that later. But instead of that, the thing is, well, what it started out here is to keep the kids off the street. Much of education is dragged out to keep the kids off the And this works, basically.

sn2-22:34

Rose: But this is going into high school. You pull up in front of a high school today, and you got three times as many cars sitting there for teachers as they used to have. In other words, they're all in there working two hours a day. Well, we're diverging, of course, from the philosophic angle. That all is burying on psychology, and then the whole people understand themselves. Yes, sir. See, the only thing I I have to look the self definition with my own thought for the end. It's the same thing I'm drinking, the milk. Yeah. It seems like the main thing I have to look with the self definition with my own thought, but yet I can't fuck my own thought. That's right. Your mind will be crazy. So what can I do? You got to keep studying the mind. This is the point. This is why meditation. This is why the reason they use this word meditation. That's what meditation is. It's not sitting here thinking about your name. It's trying to figure out how you're outwitting yourself and how to prevent yourself from outwitting yourself. How the robot reaches behind itself and finds a transistor that brings light.

sn2-23:42

Rose: I just heard, I don't think there's that much activity in the head, you don't know how to meditate. Well, you're talking about. You're thinking to yourself. I'm speaking from a psychological point of view, from any way you want to speak. I think if you're in meditation, It reminds me of a steel point. I don't think if there's- You hit me with a hammer. When you meditate, you find all that. If you meditate that way, sure. I know. You're talking about one brand of meditation. Great. Great. I advise trauma. You advise this PM, PM's peace of mind. That's slipping away, leaving the house. Work that way. Yeah. When you say, Why don't you look for trauma? Yes, right. That's the only way you can... Not only look for trauma. But look, the reason what trauma does is bring you an incident in your past when you outwitted yourself. You're talking about looking for trauma. No, no, no. I mean, look for traumas inside of you. In other words, if you suffered a setback, if you had an unfortunate experience that really shook you out, meditate on it. Don't meditate on peace. We don't have to meditate on peace.

sn2-25:18

Rose: Peace is always there. We always get that. It comes in a package, 6 feet feet. Some walking around, some are walking around yet because that was Arizona. I understand the point you were making with her about never being sure about whether you can help anybody by being compassionate or something. I'm trying to evaluate, but you can't always evaluate everybody's situation. There is a way that we need... I would even be compassionate, but what I'm doing is I'm trying to get her... I want to know if she's got a polyamic idea of compassion or whether she's got an impersonal idea of compassion. You can be compassionate for the spirit of a person or you can be compassionate for your body. I find myself, lots of times I'm compassionate for people's bodies. I don't like to drive them crazy all at once. Yes. Would you say meditation is definitely a peace come for me and my Well, you can go ahead and brought on you by outside shots. You want to do a scenario? Yes. People become enlightened just by living. Sure. That's an easier way, isn't it? All we have to do now is, why are you up?

sn2-26:52

Rose: We'll give you the shots. But the meditation, if As I said, there are people who get enlightened, though. The man I spoke of, who could not teach. He couldn't help anything because he'd gone through no discipline. This came pretty much as a result of trauma and disappointed and suffering. But if he had went through some discipline himself and he might have and reached the light as a result of it, he might have been able to come back and put somebody else in the same discipline in the same language as he's. I wanted to comment on this. Earlier, you said that there is no path. There's only one path. There is no only path, which is that. You need to tell me that there's different ways of finding the truth. Sure. I don't say that there's only one truth, and there's different ways of looking at it. Is that the same thing? Yes. There's different ways of approaching it. Well, when you say there's only one truth, no matter how many ways you look at it, you have to see the same thing. I believe that. I believe that all religions just teach that they teach the truth in a different form.

sn2-28:07

Rose: They have a small T. There's a small T truth. That's what I call the light, which means sodium and chlorine makes salt. That's small T-truth. The capital P-truth is that which never changes with time, which is absolute, which leads to absolute knowledge. And this is the same in philosophy and psychology more than anything else. There are people who come out with dogments or theories, what I call concept structures. They're very clever concept structures, and they're added onto it, built down through the ages, and a certain sanctity and reverence is put on them because they're in some sacred institution down through the ages. They're all small to true. Don't you think that psychologists and people who study their mind, I'm not sure if they can figure out the most easiest way. I mean, Can't they just analyze the truth? I believe that they could figure out ways of predicting how do you be when you're in this state. I've read many times when we were in a high-conscious state. Great people, they were on spiritual plane. They were in harmony state. There was no conflict going on in their head. Oh, I don't doubt that. When you reach it, you reach it.

sn2-29:35

Rose: Sure. But then there's different states. This is the point. In other words, you can say, if we had time here, we can win them. They're different experiences that were categorized. I maintain that categorize them by four of the eight categories, and they come as a result of the transcendence of certain basic sets that we get into or were born into or were born into. And I use the Gryffian terminology there, the instinctive, emotional, intellectual, and philosophic man. And when a man transcends any of these, he resents an exaltation. So when he transcends his instinctive nature long enough to fall in love. He becomes more of an emotional person. He's a person centered in the emotional person, a person centers an emotional part of himself. So consequently, this is always a beautiful experience. When a person falls in love for the first time, it's a very beautiful experience. And he thinks he's an army of the universe. And he thinks God is up there running this whole show just waiting to fall in love. And then he finds out later, he's been a little fat-headed. So he goes back to the drawing board. And he does some work and he studies some more.

sn2-30:48

Rose: And he's interested maybe in astronomy, cabal or mystical sciences, or some sort, spiritualism, or something. And he pings away. And finally, he discovers the same great proof for a capillistic study, for numerology, or whatever. And this is the wild expertise, people. You can get it from studying algebra. I have the experience of studying algebra. My head popped. The realization, now I knew what this was all about. From that time on, it was very easy to study. I knew what X meant, Y meant, Z meant. See? That's the story. Then you find out, as I said before, that I bet you used to spend time after a lecturing on the unreasonableness of reason. Reason is not reasonable. This is a vanity, intellectual vanity. We can pile blocks up and we say, Oh, look, we're reasoning. Just because we pile blocks up, count one, two, three, four. This is a great achievement for Southern clients. We play with the slide. We build buildings, and it comes out the way we predicted it. But then we find it's a bad idea. It's not getting us in a place anywhere to the real nature of things. We still, we can build a building, but we don't know what clay is.

sn2-32:05

Rose: We don't know what the elements are. We sense that the whole creation is something transient that ebbs and flows. We can hit in the head with a hammer, we take an LSD, a pill or something, and we find that the whole universe is like wax that flows in front of us. We have to stop and think, does it really grow? What is the real perspective point? Is there a solid universe? This is where you realize the foolishness of the intellectual experience, this is where you realize the foolishness of the intellectual. This idea of logic. We're going to do everything with logic. We're not going to get any place with logic, except get away from it. I would like to Yeah, sure. It appeals their ability. We like to think we're a very orderly people and we're going to build a Babel of science. It was one time a Babel of words, but now we're going to build a Babel of science to outer space. So we may go to outer space. But still, that doesn't say that the whole thing is not doing a dream. Yeah. Remember when we said this, is it using your impression to the country or ?

sn2-33:22

Rose: Not all. It may be one. Okay. From the beginning of the Because if you look at your past, well, you're doing that, and you're suggesting doing something. Sure. You look at yourself. Whatever means you have, whatever appeals to you to go inside yourself. Start with yourself and with people of similar interests. In other words, you have to compare notes, okay? If you're having trouble looking at yourself, or if you run yourself up a rattle occasionally, and come to a dead end, and you're thinking that you have to start all over again. And when this happens, it's good to be able to talk to somebody that's been in the same rattle. No, no, no. I'm giving you, possibly too quickly It's a very simple technique. It's what I call going back through the eye of the projector. In other words, we are a projection. It doesn't do us very good to look at the shadows that we classed on the wall or on the Our projection is on the void. We can't go in that direction. The void is a place of fantasy. But you have to go back inside through yourself. And there's a simple practice of doing that, that one day you pop through.

sn2-34:46

Rose: That's all. And you have to begin. You don't begin with the subliminal things. You begin with the basics. You begin with your body. You watch your body. You watch your mind. You watch your mind watching your mind. And you watch your essence It's watching the whole operation of watching your mind, and that's how you go back. You don't go through imagining that there's a projector and then imagining that there's a ray. You actually go back and watch your own thoughts. If you observe it, you become the principal observer. The last lecture I gave her was on that subject, the psychology of the observer. That man thinks he knows who he is, but he always talks about his self. When I talk about watching myself, I'm talking about two people, and I admit that because the fellow that I'm watching isn't me. Always, the fellow that you're watching isn't you. You are the observer. Any operation that you can watch is not you. When you make love, That is not you. When you get drunk, that is not you. So then you begin to see, you begin to live in a sense of awareness rather than trying to identify it according to a set of symbols.

sn2-35:58

Rose: I am calcium, phosphorus, hydrogen, and oxygen, et cetera. Or a characteristic, according to a psychology point, of intellect, memory, perception. You'd like to think of those things. But all of that is part of the organism. That's true. All these are the use of the regions that are already in the sense of their relationship. That's true. They're saying the same thing I'm in that respect. This outer personality, what you strip away. You don't strip it away. You look at it and it fades. When you look at it strongly enough, it fades. This is an old... They asked a Zen monk one time. It's in one of the books, How He Cured Epileptics or People That's Possessed. He said, I keep questioning it. When you question the demon long enough, it leaves. This is basically what we are. We're a beehive of entities. Some people call them voices, some people call them demons. Some of them are demons, some of them are voices, some of them are egos, we're calling them. But when you question them, they leave. They are not you. It's just like a tick or a leech. A leech is not you. What is this taking your energy?

sn2-37:23

Rose: You don't take your own energy. Something's taking your energy. When you take an LSD, for example, it looked like it was going to be a cheap way of getting a real experience. When you find out after it's all you paid for. I took LSD once, and for two weeks, I couldn't get warm. You pay. Something you usually do. And the idea is to get away from that stuff that you usually do. Yeah. I was assuming something like a profession in the past. Because this is the conversation. But if you ever found a man who had that stuff, he used it. If you ever found a man who had that stuff, he used it. It's very hard. It's very hard because you got to accept a certain obsession. You got to be obsessed. And you can't... I First of all, if you reach an enlightenment, everything's going to be dynamited out of the way. You'll probably lose your job. Like Paul would lose your wife, even your kid. Because of the simple fact that these And the reason there, sometimes it's necessary to lose is because you acquired them as they go. They were part of an egosistic acquisition.

sn2-38:42

Rose: In other words, I am going to have a woman No, you have no sense. You have nobody. You're just in different places where you find more trouble than us. But you start to fatten up your head that you're having something. Then, actually, I've asked this fellow that I knew up and high. He was a physician, a scientist. He used to say, I am a scientist. I said, Oh, Jeff, I don't want to be a scientist. This guy had a big, fat head. When he got to be 60 years of age, he was a drunken scientist, and he couldn't so far up. He couldn't live with himself. But he clung that ego. That was his prop. He could get down to the bar and tell people, I'm a scientist. That was a third barstone. But those things are in the road. And if you claim to them, of course, if you can walk two paths at once, if you're great enough, you might be able to get through. The tension, I imagine, would be times Well, I've seen this happen where somebody would say, Listen, you're not either that book goes or I go. See? And you say, Oh, heaven, don't go.

sn2-39:56

Rose: The children need you. See? So you sacrifice, you compromise, and you don't dare compromise. You have to set. If you want the truth, you have to make it your top priority. That means if you want a million dollars, the formula remains absolutely the same. If you want anything in life, you can't have everything. You can't be drunk and dope and having sex and have a million dollars, too. You have a yacht on the river. You're drunk, you're not going to have a yacht. But we're not going to have a family. But this is what it boils down to, we take the opposite then for maximum chance of success. At any venture, we throw all of our energy in there. In physics, the results are proportional to energy applied. You want to carry this into metaphysics, as they're turning philosophy It applies. The people who find are the people who dig by God until they find. They don't take it. It is not a manby-pampy thing where you float blissfully into heaven by saying prayers, burning candles, and smiling at everybody you meet and saying nothing brutal. It's a fight. It's a jungle. It's a spiritual jungle as well as a physical jungle.

sn2-41:08

Rose: You have to fight like a man. You can't go in there like a mouse because in heaven, the mice don't eat the cats. Have you got a cat? Do you think it's possible when we sit on your terms, in a period of time, that that can be a way? It does. In this respect, everything you do will wide you up. But how many hundred years do you have? Of course, one profession, one inclination. This is the thing. We're talking about expedition. Sure, you can take your time. You can go out and live, and you'll get traumas, and you'll get wiser. Everybody gets wiser. Every old man or old woman that dies, if they pass 60 years of age or even pass 50 years of age, they've got something to tell you before they die. At 50, you're not going to hear it. They're going to say, Don't. It includes you. That's On TM? I think TM is a nanodyme. For people that are traumatic and And there's times when trauma is too severe to be useful in the line of tension. And in this case, when people need healed, then TM is good for that type of trauma.

sn2-42:44

Rose: And this is the reason that I think that it fell into place, that there were many people who got in the TM who were traumatic, who were too far gone to even listen to philosophy, too far gone to get their energy energy up and decide to fight. They didn't have to fight with it. The only thing they could have is they had to rest, and they had to find something that would glean them peacefully away from something else, not traumatic. I think it came in As I said, none of us on the same path. Then from the young lady's reflection, her compassion. A little bit earlier, he stated that there was no one way in the truth, but then you say to her that she was involved with... I can't remember exactly what I said. I think I understood. You said, that she could not be compassionate if she still might reach the truth. No, I didn't say that. What I was saying was, when she used the word compassion, I'm always on guard for somebody bringing up the polyamory and saying that their spirituality is love. God is love. Where did they get this stuff from?

sn2-43:57

Rose: Well, I'm not talking about- And compassion the same way. Sure. The thing is, everyone that I've ever met that was in the spiritual work had any depth in spiritual work. He was very compassionate. He didn't talk about it. Virgil was a very compassionate man. He was very foxy, too. But he didn't talk about his compassion. Because if you let people know you're compassionate, then you got leaners. You got people that you can't shock. And it's necessary to shock people sometimes. That's one of the instruments that is used to bring people out of their free essence of peace. Peace is not the goal. Realization of the goal. And all learning comes by trauma. All learning. By some unhappiness or inconvenience. Adversity is the father of invention, I'd say. These are all things that we're saying we have some time to learn. All right. You said we should fight before the discovery of God. The forces of the mercy of your God, the spiritual number. Or it would not be better to try to hide for some of these evidence sources. Well, it depends on which one you're talking.

File sn3

sn3-00:00

Rose: They should just give blind obedience to a church or a movement just because you have to be born into it or because it has the power to hold you. Now, what are we after, basically? What are the results of this? What is the history of acquisition? We've heard now certain aims or certain formula for acquiring this knowledge, if you want to call it that, it's actually not a knowledge. You can't acquire a realization of the absolute. You can only become. You can't acquire a change in the state of being. You just change, that's all. And you can't describe it, Johnny, when you change. But you'll have quite a few people, if you want to look in the books, there's quite a few books on it describing people who have found the answer to the algebra X that they seem to know. And these people come in certain categories. I somehow believe that the things that happen to a person after death somehow are parallel to these categories of appreciation or of realization. In other words, you'll hear people say, Well, I found God. Another person will say that they have reached Saturian, and another one will say, He's reached cosmic consciousness.

sn3-01:35

Rose: And still another word is enlightenment. Now, there's a lot of words you'll hear besides that, but they fall into those journeys, those four categories. When I was young, I thought they were all the same thing. I'd hear this now, but this is just everybody's talking about the same thing. It's just a matter of when where one man explains it a little differently. But after examination of these by people who had spent their lives in each one of these different categories, we find out they're not talking of the same thing. So that when a person finds God, sometimes he's talking about losing his instinctive self. In other words, if you find the salvationist, I'd like to mention or use that term because most of the people who have been saved in Pentecostal movements or in something similar to that, maybe just by searching from the Bible or something, are similar to people who find salvation in a personal guru. For instance, it's the abandonment of the individual ego instead of the submission to another ego or another force. It's very difficult for the person on what I call an instinctive level, an instinctive as described by Gurgia.

sn3-03:14

Rose: A person on an instinctive level to suddenly leap past all these different stages and finally come into the awareness of everything without having had some shedding of misunderstandings, misconceptions. The instinctive man or the man who's really living for the next drink or the next sexual experience or something of that sort, is not going to give too much thought to philosophy, but he may become dissatisfied with his life, and he may have enough trauma to get him to a position where he wants to change, where he wants to become something loftier or better. And he may attach himself to a guru or to Jesus. The majority of people attach themselves to Jesus, that are Christian-oriented, and somehow visualize this person as being more important to themselves, dropping their ego in behalf of this other person, and consequently, dropping an ego which stands between them and a true realization of themselves. And of course, when this happens, they think they've hit the jackpot, and they have to a certain extent. They're liberated from the possibility a whole lifestyle. But this type of thing differs from another experience which we call satori. Now, I'm going to distinguish between these two words, satori and enlightenment, because by definition, by the description of people who have evidently had satori and by people who have manifestly been enlightened, and the two descriptions don't tie in at all.

sn3-04:53

Rose: The satori is a momentary flash of recognition, a momentary awareness that you have a corner on the truth. I liken this satori experience to the experience that a person might have when working an algebra problem. Maybe he works with it, labores with it for several months or so, and it means nothing to him. And then all of a sudden, for no real good systematic reason, he breaks out and the answer pops upon him or the realization of the sense of relating X plus Y or Z or something. It now has a meaning for him that it didn't have before. And it's a revelation. And it's the eureka experience. The Torre and the Eureka experience are very similar. It's very short-lived, and there's no after-trauma. These can be found in various books, Watts, and what. Capulo has a book that talks about some of these experiences, which you can get up and walk away from. No one gets up and walks away from this experience of enlightenment. This is death. And you have to experience death and go through it. You It's not a very cheerful experience, which you can just say, pop, that's it. Well, I know the answer.

sn3-06:20

Rose: The other thing, and these incidences come in gradations. They follow like one day follows the other, but maybe there's 20 years in between them. The other one that you hear described in Bucky's cosmic consciousness is Cosmic Consciousness. This is when you finally become aware of the unity of the universe and the unity of all things, and you become aware of it. You just don't read about it and believe it. You become aware of it. You can get a book. I can save a lot of time here. If you're curious about this stuff, you can just get a book, Cosmic Consciousness, and he describes it. He goes back and he did research on the experiences of John of the Cross and Buddha and Christ, Saint Paul, and quite a few of them, 30 or 40 cases. But yet this is accompanied by light. All of these cases, Saint Paul was struck down by a light. The light was so great that it blinded him. This is a relative symptom, a symptom that describes these different levels as apart from the other levels. St. John of the Cross's cell was flooded with light. Throughout the writings in esoteric matters, you continue to hear the reference to the word living in the light.

sn3-07:41

Rose: This is something that can be described. It's a relative thing in that it can be described. It's a relative experience. Sometimes the light takes on a rose-colored view. Sometimes it may seem to be, you think by the description, the fellow had a little bit of LSD. But coupled with this is the feeling, the intense conviction that all is right with the world and all you have your place in it forever, and there's no danger of being obliviated by death. And now we go on to this top experience, which is enlightenment. And enlightenment, of course, is nondescribable, but it is not. It comes with trauma. And after it is passed, there is trauma. And this This is the big argument. Everybody wants to believe. In fact, I get quite a few things in my different lectures. People say, Hey, you're not talking about a divine experience because it has to be blissful. Well, I'm talking about the maximum experience, and it isn't blissful to know that you're nothing and to return once more and have to live fully in the knowledge that you are nothing, because by this time, all of your egos have left, and all that remains is nothing.

sn3-08:59

Rose: Now, coincidentally with that, because we're speaking of an absolute state with a relative word, I must add also that you also realize that you are everything. The realization, the simultaneous realization that you are both nothing and everything is one of the keynotes of the enlightenment experience. I've noticed that the Zen avoids, and it should, we should avoid talking about it even because it'll color a person's idea when they're working along the path. They'll say, Well, I'm waiting for symptoms when I realize I'm nothing, and I may even talk myself into being nothing or thinking I'm nothing just for the sake of trying to get this experience, which is wrong. You should never postulate the symptoms ahead of time. You should let the chips fall. But to give you an idea now of this common thing that permeates all esoteric pores in the major religions or the major religious movements, I found that, as I said, Zen, the writings on Zen don't give you too much of a description. The best description I found of it, and this is almost synonymous with what I've just told you, it comes from Ramona Maharshi. You can get this book.

sn3-10:14

Rose: It's available, I think, in any of the bookstores around here. The sign of Aquarius would have it. And he avoids the first two steps that I spoke of. And he compares Kibala Samadhi and Sahadja Samadhi with sleep. And Kivala Samadhi is the same as cosmic consciousness, as you'll see later, and Sahadja Samadhi is the same as the enlightenment that has reached in the maximum steps of Zen. And yet the word Zen is never used in the man's book. In sleep, the mind is alive in the first step. In Kivala Samadhi, the mind is alive. In the Sahadja Samadhi, the mind is dead. This is another symptom of this final stage, that you can witness in cosmic consciousness, you can step out as Bucky did in his patio, his veranda, and witness the transformation of the world before his eyes, but he can come back to it and describe it. He can be talking to you while what's going on. But in Sahadjus Amadi, the mind is dead, and the final experience requires the killing of the mind. You hear this talk, and it may not have full meaning to you until you examine a little bit.

sn3-11:45

Rose: In sleep, the mind is sunk in oblivion, unless it happened to be dreaming, where there's no awareness of an inner life going on beyond that body, which is now unconscious. In the depths of Kivala Samadhi, the mind is sunk in light. It's good to remember this connotation. It's light, which is a relative thing. In Sahadjian, Samadhi or enlightenment, it's resolved into the self. Now, this is capital S self, not the mundane self. The next step, as far as the mind is concerned, there is no next step. But the description of the cavelous body, if you try to give it to you in a term that you can understand, it's like a bucket tied to a rope and that's lying in the bottom of a well to be drawn out by the other end of the rope, meaning that you have contact with the Earth and your earthly body, and you can pull yourself back into it and recount the experience, and go back into it. You can drop the bucket back in, if you wish. But in the enlightenment experience, it's like a river discharged into the ocean with its identity lost. And a river cannot be redirected from the ocean.

sn3-13:15

Rose: So this is an experience of basically no return. Now, this I'm just giving you for the purpose of maybe if you haven't already encountered it, some of the definitions, because I don't see them available. I don't see them made available just in every book as to the basic steps that people go through and the things that you might want to identify as you're going along this trail. Now, one of the things that you discover, one of the things that you discover is that, first of all, the world as you see it, is is not the real world. And this, again, generally in the listener, provokes a tremendous lot of reaction and say, Hey, don't tell me that this isn't wood in front of me here or that this isn't a floor underneath of me. But it is a fact that we learn as we go along that the world is not what not what it appears to be. And of course, if you happen to go through this final experience of enlightenment, this will be verified for you. I want to give you an outline of the experiences with the mind. And beyond that, I think it'll be possibly close to an hour past then, I would like to turn the meeting over to you so that you can ask questions, because I don't know exactly what you'd like to hear, what you're curious about, perhaps what level you'd be coming from, what your previous readings or associations have been, and it's better to make contact with you in this manner.

sn3-15:21

Rose: I have one request beforehand in this regard to questioning. No loaded questions. Unless you want to be answered with a question. That may be a nice Zen technique, but time can be saved if we are honest with each other. In other words, occasionally, I offend somebody's particular cult, ism, or religion. A person will try to throw loaded questions at me to verify or justify his particular religion. I'm not interested in that. I'm not even interested interested in converting into this. Sometimes I wonder what I am up here for. But I find myself here a couple of times a year. And for what good it does, that's all I can hook to hand you. In other words, questions which would provoke argument would take a lot of time. This is the whole thing. Or questions that orient from your ego, arise from your ego wanting to prove your wisdom or something of that sort, would also take up a lot of time, and I would rather agree beforehand that everyone here is wise, and we won't have to prove it. But this is, in my estimation, the only vehicle that we have to work with is our thoughts.

sn3-16:55

Rose: It's evident that our thoughts are rather difficult. It's a difficult medium. That's all we have. I find that there's about five major types of mental experience, and I'll have to read them because I can't remember. The first is thought. And thought is a vision. These are mental experiences, and they are all visions. They are all things that we see. Thought is a waking vision associated with action or reaction, but seemingly self-controlled or self-eminated. I said seemingly. Witnessed only by ourselves or a rare psychic. Read visible on an encephalograph as irregular voltage. Cannot be proven by sensory evidence. Appears to be real. Dreams. Dreams is a vision or visualization Sleep visualization. Admittedly not self-caused. Now, the reason I'm going through this explanation as we go is because these are different, and you'll see the difference in them, that they're distinct mental phenomena categories. Sleep is a dream, that is, are not self-caused. Seemingly projected upon the sleeper generally appears to be unreal only after waning. In other words, the dream seems to be very real while you're in it, but it's after you wake up. It's a nightmare. You'll be convinced it's real. Now, the third category is vision as internal revelation or lifelike dream.

sn3-18:46

Rose: It's a different type of dream. Like the dream that is perceived by ourself alone, visualize with some internal sense. It varies from the ordinary dream, and then it has factors that indicate that it may not be a dream alone. Evidence may be in the dream of things not previously known by the dreamer. This is where it differentiates from the dream. It's precognitive. Or the dream may be so real as to convince us that a message was sent by another person or divine intelligence. We hear these accounts. These experiences become important when they are vivid enough to change the course of a person's life or later are proven to be truly precognitive. Now, you'll have instances in history, which if you'll be aware of it, they have changed people's lives. Lincoln, I suppose, they've had a dream and function a good bit on his dream. He had a dream of his own assassination, I understand. The fourth category is the apparition. This vision differs from the above in that it may be seen by others, seemingly noted by the senses, but not not always photographable. While seemingly very objective experiences, they are not accepted scientifically. In this category, we find such things as the visitations at Fatima.

sn3-20:15

Rose: Or ghosts or invoked entities, things that are invoked by thematurgical rights. This is something that seems to be solid, sometimes can be photographed, sometimes it can't be. But science doesn't care if it's to try to analyze them. The last are physical visions and illusions. Now, in other words, this last category is the basic understandable experience that all of us have is that the eye is see. In other words, we see or hear. When I talk about seeing this business of perception, all these apply also to hearing, smelling, but there's not too much of the other sense is witnessed in dream. We and sometimes talk in a dream. It's very solid that we have an experience of smelling or tasting in a dream. So now we get down to the physical senses, the door to the mind through the physical senses. And in this category, we also have a whole category of illusions, of things that are basically not properly defined or answered. They differ in that they are seen in the daylight and be considered eyeball or a whole sense experiences. Some of these visions are accepted by science, and some of them are merely dodged by scientists.

sn3-21:33

Rose: For instance, science will accept the illusion of the holograph because it can explain it, and will likewise accept the illusions caused by retinal limitations. If you don't understand what I'm saying, you can hear me. I mean, the retina of the eye, doesn't pick up things the same way the mind appreciates it. It attempts to explain the mirage, but I have never heard an adequate explanation of one. I've I've never in my life, for all the mirages that have been seen, I've never heard a proper explanation. It's just a postulation or guess. The case of the disintrigating prayer book in the right of exorcism on the young DC boy is simply denied because it cannot be duplicated under all test conditions. Now, this was supposedly an illusion. In case you aren't acquainted with it, this picture, the Exorcist, was taken from an actual happening in Washington, DC. Dc. And I followed it from 1949 on. It happened in '49. So the boy, the picture was made of a girl, but it was actually a young boy, about 13, 14 years old. And I used to keep the clippings, and I still have them. The newspapers have different discoveries for the different events and connected with it.

sn3-22:55

Rose: I don't think it gave it in the movie. I didn't go see the movie because I thought it was a common burlesque of something that could have been a good psychological movie. Instead of that, they played up for the more or less morbid interest of people. But during the exorcism, the priests approached the boy with a prayer bolt, and the boy reached out with his tip of his finger and touched it, and it disintrigated into confetti and fell on the floor. Now, there is no scientific explanation for this, and actually, anyone hearing it would say, Oh, that was Maybe they were trying to make a good case for themselves or something. But these things do happen, and I have, in my lifetime, encountered quite a few strange phenomena that weren't natural, seemingly natural, like table told him. I was down in Washington, DC, not too long ago, and they had a head in there. It was on the mast, supposed to be on the mast of a ship. It was just a mast head in the face. And they had a voice inside of the head, and the lips moved and talked. The eyes blink.

sn3-24:03

Rose: It looked very human, very human head. But actually, it was just a piece of wood or something, piece of plastic. It never moved at all. The illusion was caused by them focusing a camera on the features and locking them in precisely. So the picture for the nose hit right on the nose and that thing. So when the lips moved, the projection was so intense that you couldn't see anything but the lips moving. You couldn't see the still lips behind it. So this is a type of illusion I'm talking about. The Indian rope trick is another. Supposedly, the Indian rope trick is not photographable. But I think if you photographed this head in the Smithsonian, it was in the Smithsonian Institute, that you would have seen the same thing your eyes saw. So these, some of them are photographable. The table levitation is photographable. Materializations are photographable, and these are seemingly illusions. That is where an entity materializes, which Now, the reason I'm bringing this up is to bring out the mechanisms that we have for appreciating this visible universe. We're going to start in here with a maximum project of solving the problem of who we are and what is this universe we're standing on.

sn3-25:18

Rose: This is what I consider the total mental categories of the way we will go about looking at this thing, either subjectively or intuitively or objectively, but it's going to have to be done with the help of the senses or the seeing apparatus. We've got to get back to basic reality. Behind all this. How do we know, for instance, that when we look at a mirage, that we have seen something that did not exist or that the Earth upon which we stand does not exist, and the mirage is more real? Because we get to a point where it's difficult to trust our senses. It's only through this type of exploration that we're able to step away from the materialistic world and look at things from a more, I'd say, total or holistic viewpoint. I'm going to leave this with you, my evaluation of this, is what is the reality of thought? In other words, if this is what we are, if we are thinking creatures, we presume that if we survive death, we'll be still thinking, or we will be aware or something, or will we only be aware and not thinking? And if we're having this much trouble finding clarity and definition about solid objects as to whether they really exist as we see them, clear up to the realm of thought, which we can't see, but yet we have to depend on as being real, we're in trouble as to the vehicle with which we're going to identify the universe.

sn3-27:11

Rose: Thought cannot be apprehended with a census. Yet no one, even the materialistic scientist, will deny the existence of thought. We can't photograph it or lock it in someplace and dissect it. It is strange that the materialistic scientist does not investigate the essence of thought more closely since all of his physical calculations and emanations are from his mind. Now, this means that what we're doing today, we're only examining the effects of thought, or we're examining patterns of reaction. We're not examining the essence of thought itself. Thoughts are daytime visions that are associated with our momentary actions. When we wish to fasten, I'm trying to give you analysis now what I can see thought to be. When we wish to fasten two pieces of wood together, we think of a nail. We do not think of nailing. We visualize a nail or we visualize a piece of wood that somebody else has nailed together. But we never visualize nailing or gluing. We see a picture of two pieces of wood glued together or nailed together. That's what happens in our head when we're working around the house or something. We do not think of a process this.

sn3-28:30

Rose: We may visualize the wood splitting and next visualize the two pieces of wood neatly glued together. But the picture visualize shows us the need for glue, and if we have no glue or cramps, the mind may visualize another picture of two pieces of wood nailed together, but with finishing nails this time, or a different method without the splitting. Have you ever tried to work on your car by thinking car repair alone? Or did you find a better and quicker method by visualizing the voltage in the fluids flowing or not flowing after certain symptoms caused the visualization? I wonder how close this comes with this, the following is it? Zen in the art of motorcycle repairing. I never read that one either. We think about processes, systems, and categories, and we visualize them or envision them because we can visualize a series of things, but that is what we envision, just a list or a list of words or a list of items. Thinking is a process. Thought is a vision. Thinking is a process by which particular projections are received by our awareness. In other words, what is the thing behind thought? We are not thought.

sn3-29:55

Rose: Thought is a process that goes on. We are basically something something either in awareness or behind awareness because we are aware of thinking. So therefore, thinking is not us. These projections are three-dimensional and are often, usually, audiovisual visual, with the touch sensation appearing in thoughts less frequently than the smell and taste sensations appearing even more or less frequently. We cannot think about a thought, but we can think about thinking. Because thinking is a process which can be visualized as a series of pictures of thoughts. I will explain this. If you think you can think about a thought, try to think of a recent thought that you just had. While you're sitting here. You will notice that you quickly brought back the picture of the previous experience. You didn't think about the thought. You saw it again. For instance, if you were just thinking of a sentence in a psychology book, you will have, on trying to think of that thought, merely see in your mind's eye the same sentence as printed upon the same page and book as previously visualized. We can't think about it, say, subjectively. We just see or visualize it. I have used the word projection, and for the time being, rather than try to explain why the universe moves and a scene bias is moving, it must be enough to say that our environment is forced upon us through our senses.

sn3-31:29

Rose: We don't choose We did not choose our own birth, nor did we choose a set of symbols that have been used to serve as a double visualization. This is where the words come in. The words are symbols, and we've been vented all sorts of symbols for abstractions and also for chemical formula and that thing. But it's a double visualization. We visualize a horse when we think of one, but we also visualize the letters, H-O-R-S-E. The original Our horse visualization is a recall or a memory of an actual horse sighting. If we've never seen one, of course, we may go by a picture, but if we've never seen a horse or a picture, we'll have no idea, we'll have no recall, we'll have no thought on the matter when a person mentions it. If we have never seen anything but a white horse, our succeeding visualizations of a horse will all remain those of white horses until we either meet a colored horse or dream up a brown horse by visualizing, that is, imagining, brown color added to our visualization picture. Now, there's a characteristic to the thought that should be remembered, and that is that it is remembered.

sn3-32:39

Rose: This differentiates the thought that's saying from the dream. The dream isn't always remembered. We give ourselves a An attribute which we call memory. In reality, we have no choice in that either. We cannot refuse to think and we cannot refuse to remember. External events may cause amnesia, but it takes an external factor to make us forget. The cannot refuse to make the recording. It might be said that thoughts exist or are recognizable only because they are remembered. If we did not remember that which we thought, thought would be nothing more than variations in awareness. In other words, thought is invariably, inexerably, tied to memory. It's identified by, in fact. It can be seen the thought as visions contains all of the other forms of visions. All the other forms, the other four categories exist within the framework of thought, and they find existence and recognition bias by being part of our thought processes or variations of perception that make for different thought processes. For instance, when we speak of physical vision, we think of the process of seeing or perceiving that which is sensory, things through our senses. Physical vision is at one end of the spectrum of which thought is at the other end.

sn3-33:58

Rose: Thought generally results physical vision or physical perception through the senses. But the internal vision or visualization that results from external stimulus is admittedly the highest function of man, even though it is not as proven or objectively recognized. We can more or less say, Well, if I see something, that's proofable. But you can't prove your thoughts, what you think. And yet all of us agree it's our highest function. Rarely does a person doubt that which both people see, but rarely do two people understand, much less agree upon, the other follows interpretations or visualizations. This is one of the big barriers between the Tower of Babel. We can create words, but the meaning He's behind them will keep us apart. We come to the dream as being a sleep time vision, pretty much the same as daytime thoughts. The source of the dream vision is not of the individual's choosing. The substance of the dream is rarely the desire of the dreamer. Sometimes they say it'll be chased back to desire. I think some of the psychologists thought this before. He thought it was a hidden desire cropping out or could be interpreted as that. But we get some that really surprises.

sn3-35:16

Rose: In the dream, the visualization is more selective, and consequently, it makes more of an impression as a phenomenon. In other words, we were limited to the... When we're thinking, we have our eyes open and a tremendous amount of materials impinging upon our retina and upon our senses. So we're confused or we're distracted while we're trying to think. But in a dream, there's a certain picture in there and there isn't too much to disrupt it. So It's much more of a phenomenon. Like the thought, brain activity during dreaming shows up on the encephalograph. But unlike thought, most dream visions are forgotten. With most people, a special effort must be made to remember dreams, such as intentionally recalling immediately upon awakening and then writing them down. They say that most people dream every night, but most people forget them. Now, it's good to think about this, that if our thinking processes were similar to our dreams, We could never resolve very much about our nature, about science or anything, because we would forget it, frankly, as soon as we experienced the thought. That's what's important. Yeah. Can you No, this is basically my—I told you before I told you before it started, this is basically my understanding of the human mind, the way it works.

sn3-36:42

Rose: Now, it's open to debate if you wish to question it. It's basically my concept of the way the mind works. The dream is something like a picture. I will also explain to you how we come about this realization. Some I think that the best way to study the human mind is by looking at the mind rather than by looking at the, let's say, behavioral records or the inkblots, reactions to inkblots or something of that sort, but go directly into the mind. The dream is like something of a picture show which the dreamer watches and is sometimes involved as an actor. In the thinking process, if things get too distasteful, the subject can allow its mind to focus in another direction. But in dreaming, the subject is the mercy of the script. You have to keep on with the dream or wake up. Yet the thing which catches our attention in the observation of the dream processes is seeming reality of the dream at the time. The seeming reality, I should say, especially if it's a nightmare. In connection with this idea, we get a new look at the term reality. This is what we're after, is reality.

sn3-37:57

Rose: Is not the real, is not that real, which impresses us most strongly as to its existence. In other words, if a dog bites you on the leg, you'll pretty much admit that that dog is real. We'll define our material world with this same thing in mind as that which impresses us strongly is accepted as reality where something like a dream or just an idea may not be the real world. Here is Here is a mind state that comes and goes like a phantom, disappearing even from our memory unless it is a nightmare, and yet visits us with the violence that bespakes a stark reality. A person may say that in some nightmares, we seem to be aware of the nightmare and try to awake it, which might mean that even in that crisis, we know that there is a state more real. We seem to think that the waking state is more real. But is it more real? This is the point of bringing this out in this manner. The man on the weighted electric chair, the girl who finds herself cornered by homicidal maniac, may pinch themselves thinking that it is a dream and hoping that it is a dream.

sn3-39:15

Rose: And for them, which is real? Perhaps a less offensive nightmare. Then let's give this idea another twist. Have you ever dreamed that you were awake while in the middle of a nightmare and tried to pinch yourself or tried to awake knowing while dreaming that you can escape from the nightmare by awakening and found that you did not awake and were consequently convinced that you were awake all the time the terror was real? As I said, now this may not be... We don't have a laboratory here, but which is the seed process is going to be proved in their exact state or the definition proved exactly. But I'm bringing this out to show that there are times in your life when your very belief or conviction of this world is being real or is thrown into jeopardy, and it's thrown into a point where you may change your course of life or do something desperate, like to leap through a window. Is not this the same position demand on the way the electric chair is in? He has an idea that the whole thing may not be happening, but he realizes that he cannot shut off the movie or the nightmare.

sn3-40:31

Rose: What happens in these cases is that our original comfortable concept of reality is upset. We lead lives which we think we understand, but there are times when the whole understanding becomes absurd. And what is worse is the fact that it is then only that we recognize that we have no control over this scene called life, which is projected from somewhere outside of us. Now, maybe you can see where I'm trying to lead you. Is to have a better or more factual, or if you want to call it that, more final absolute appraisal of things. We take the next two categories, vision as internal revelation or an intense life dream, and the category which is vision as apparition. And notice these two mental experiences are becoming more tangible and objective than thought and dream. But even while becoming more tangible as individual phenomena, become at the same time even more evident potential concerning the nature of reality, shaking our previous comfortable acceptance of the sensory testimony and identifying that which is real. In other words, our senses just aren't valid. It seems as though in the majority of cases, when we pick up a piece of bread and put it into our mouth, we can get by.

sn3-41:48

Rose: It's bread and it won't poison us. And yet we'll live our entire life in this comfort because of the common understandings of the qualities of the bread and our eyes and our taste and that thing. But there are things that happen in our life, invariably, that shake the whole structure. And when these things happen, then, of course, we get an insight for the first time. If we don't have these happen to us, we may never be provoked to look deeper. To summarize all this, all these categories bear a common denominator. They are the result of projection from outside of that which we ordinarily identify as our individual self. In other words, the things that are happening to us, we are not doing. Modern psychologists, some of them, would like to blame us for everything that happens to us. Now, as God or as a collective human consciousness, perhaps we are. But as individuals, mundane, protoplasmic individuals, we are projected upon rather than doing. This individual self or self which we desire to be ours, that small s self now, would desire to be also nonviolatable. Manifesting would be that which we identify as being real as opposed to dreams or wishful or fictional states of mind.

sn3-43:09

Rose: However, permeating all these mental experiences, which are in fact the total of human experience, is a line of phenomena which indicate that man is not sure of reality. That reality is not that which he wishes it to be, at least. If a man acts upon seeing a mirage, it means that he has no way of discriminating between the previous accepted world reality and sure fiction, which means that he may just as easily interpret the opposite to the mirage as sure fiction if he chooses to, meaning the real world. That's what we see. For instance, was the demon of Socrates less real than the judges that killed him? If the sun dances at Fatima and is so witnessed by thousands, is it not possible that the rest of us just are unable to see that the sun is dancing all the time? Or do we retreat into testimony by numbers and come up with a vote as to reality? Now, that's a prolonged bit of evaluation that is a little more than a co-am, but I hope that in thinking about thinking, you start possibly to look upon our relation to our source, which is, I said, something was projected upon us, our life was projected upon us.

sn3-44:29

Rose: And in one of the Zen books, I ran across this little saying. I forget who wrote it because it doesn't matter. The eye that looks upon God is the same eye that God looks upon man. So that basically we have to look and.

File sn4

sn4-00:01

Rose: So that basically we have to look. We find, I think, that after you concentrate upon your internal nature, that you automatically become one with that which in turn is projecting things upon you. For what it's worth, then I'll turn this over to some questions and possibly enlarge on some part of it if you wish to. Would you say that the author, he used Christianity, the way it originally started out, was trying...

sn4-00:49

Q: Christ was actually leaning towards this type of development as far as a possible conscience of God, and that it's only for man.

sn4-01:00

Rose: You mean was Christ deliberately trying to lead man out of the confusion? Yeah.

sn4-01:06

Q: Was he actually going towards... Was his vision of a God, something of a cosmic your opinion, rather than what a lot of Catholic churches- Well, I can't answer you on that because all I have to go on, and I've done quite a bit of research into the But again, we have translations and words and many opinions, and many of the opinions are rooted in a certain amount of validity on both sides.

sn4-01:42

Rose: I really don't know exactly what Christ is doing. Some say he was a politician, but some of the things he spoke of, we attribute certain things to him that I found very much in line with the testimony of people who were enlightened. One of them was that I and the Father are one. Seek and you shall find. This is opposed to, for instance, this is in opposition to the general directive to believe. He said that, too. He said, believe on me. But he also said, seek and you shall find. Well, this is in line with the Zen idea of exploration, not just sitting and believing. But I think that I interpret, of course, his direction to believe in him was to believe in yourself. I think a person believes in themselves, they can find out things. But as far as what peak he reached in life, I have no way of knowing. Yes.

sn4-02:50

Q: I'm sorry, do you do anything for a living?

sn4-02:53

Rose: I don't do this for a living. I'm retired. I have some property and some money in bank.

sn4-03:07

Q: Well, The best description I have heard of it, and of course, I don't like to say something I can't prove, but the best description of it is the Otman and the brahman, one of the fingers of God, if you want to put it that way, but that's poetically speaking.

sn4-03:34

Rose: Well, you've asked me something. See, I told you poetically speaking, and I can't... In other words, this is again something I can't prove. The word God should not be used because of the postulation. You should doubt everything until you prove it for yourself. And then there's no need for the proof. Of course, that might sound like I'm trying to dodge you very cleverly. But I maintain this is the reason people who don't find out anything is because instead of searching, they postulate and say, I'm going to look for God. Well, what is God? Immediately, they start taking the authorities then of people who are God experts. Sometimes it can lead them down a tremendous devious trail. The proper thing to do is to approach from a point of ignorance, not one of knowledge. And retreat from what I call the garbage.

sn4-04:34

Q: I think that there's brief moments when you can stop your thoughts.

sn4-04:42

Rose: And generally, that has to be done. We talk about in Zen, they talk about killing the mind. It's very hard for you to kill your own mind. It'll happen occasionally by accident. But that, too, generally is caused by an external factor, and that factor sometimes being a helper, a teacher, or something of that sort.

sn4-05:03

Q: Is the system of Zen, is that pretty much the same as yoga? I mean, do you think the same goal is?

sn4-05:10

Rose: Well, that's what I'm trying to explain to you. I would say that the highest form that is spoken of in rhaja yoga would be the same as Ramana Maharshi's Sahadja Samadhi. This would be the same goal as enlightenment.

sn4-05:25

Q: So Zen and yoga actually above two different projects on the same There are many Zen.

sn4-05:32

Rose: This word Zen is not the final thing. You can receive it by saying your prayers, by being a good Christian. When I mentioned the idea of possible dissatisfaction of my own with, say, the Christian path, it doesn't mean that Christianity itself is evil. It means I didn't find anything in that place because I was with the wrong people. There's a lot of people who were trying to keep me on a believing or an emotional, devotional stage. Now, the truth has no religion all locked up for itself. It has no geographical area in the world all locked up for itself. It's basically inside each man. I like to tell the most outstanding case that I have encountered, a genuine, enlightened person, was not a Japanese Zen master. He was a drunken aviator. This is the truth. His name was Paul Wood. He had bombed Japan, in fact. Maybe he blew up a Roshi. I don't know. But anyhow, he came apart at the scenes. He had a nervous breakdown, or the equivalent of such, by being dissatisfied with to kill people. He was a devout Christian, and he believed that, as the Bible said, that God observes the fall of the spiral.

sn4-07:08

Rose: And he said to himself, If God observes the fall of the spiral, what's he doing now? Well, I'm dropping these bombs. And the result was they cashiered him out of the army and sent him home because he was a liability instead of an asset. We went back home and he continued to talk to himself, and his wife's worried about it. He had children, and the children more or less frowned on him. He became pretty much of a bum. But he got rather desperate. He said, Well, what can I do? All I have is my religion. I'll go back to it. See if there's an answer to my religion. He took the Lord's prayer because somewhere in the Bible, it said, If you would seek an answer, pray thusly. He took the Lord's prayer, and he meditated upon this, the same as somebody to meditate on a mantra or a cohen or something. And he kept this up persistently, day after day, analyzing it, focusing in on his head. Nothing happened except and more trouble occurred. He had to work for a living, and he's working as a salesman in some automobile agency. And he had to meet the public, and he was in no shape to meet the public.

sn4-08:10

Rose: So the traumas increased, and one day, he laid his head down on the desk and prayed for God to kill him, and he passed out. When he woke up, he was in the hospital. But he had been in the hospital for 10 days, or possibly between a week and 10 days in a condition of enlightenment in which he knew and experienced the secrets of the universe. And I sat in a garage. I heard the man talking in a garage in Akron, Ohio. And I realized that he was a very profound case. To have looked at him, you wouldn't have believed that there was anything enlightened about him because he had soaked up quite a bit of booze in his time. And he looked like a crazy. He'd have been a double for this fellow who was on the Jackie Gleason show. So much for an enlightened man that he was there. He never read a book on Zen or never heard of Yildo. It's an internal thing, the awakening of an internal truth. Yes.

sn4-09:15

Q: You're talking about an empty system as being a sudden momentary experience with short duration. What makes you feel sure that it's a sudden experience and it's not something that gradually is?

sn4-09:26

Rose: Well, for instance, all I He knows what I experience myself. Now, satori is more or less referred to as a sudden experience. The thing is that the breakover may seem sudden, although it may take, in my particular case, it took several hours. Going into it took several hours. So it wasn't sudden. Now, by gradual, as a man changing in life, this I don't buy. I don't believe that you get holier and holier and holier and holier, just suddenly you pop and become a transformed being. I I don't buy that. But I don't lay down any symptoms or any exact way that this has to happen to you. It may happen, and I believe it happens to each man differently. Each person that I've talked to, for instance, as this fellow, you could say, Well, his suffering, this trauma he was going through, may have been a gradual buildup to it, perhaps. In that case, you'd say, Well, that was a gradual experience. But it wasn't the experience. The experience only came. That broke through. But at what what time it broke through in which he realized it, in which the Earth died and everything on this visible universe died, and it suddenly was everything and nothing.

sn4-10:44

Rose: That may happen in a moment or in an hour.

sn4-10:49

Q: In other words, you would still say that the unlegalment cannot be a continuous process.

sn4-10:54

Rose: You have to be either unlegal or not enlisted. There is nothing beyond. In our comprehension, there is nothing beyond absolute. There can be nothing beyond the absolute. If there is, it's beyond our comprehension.

sn4-11:08

Q: But it would be a partial approach to absolute value.

sn4-11:14

Rose: I'm not saying by how rapid your steps are, how many they are. This, I don't know. As I said, every man is different. But the realization, as I have defined earlier when I was talking, this always is the same by the testimony of people who have acquired it. You started to ask that.

sn4-11:31

Q: I was going to comment. A friend of mine who traveled in India made another American there. This guy was older. He had been over in India He said he was with you to be to welcome you down and to thank you for being there. He used to walk up and down, back to his dance. These guys were sitting, sitting and meditated, take a stick and left him across the back. He showed an egocentric reaction.

sn4-12:06

Rose: I wonder he made it very far. There's no symptoms. There are no symptoms. You can't tell. As I said, he might be a drunk in Guggenheim.

sn4-12:20

Q: I'm not working with grand statistics. I'd like to ask you one thing. You said, Because we are aware of thought, we are not thought. Is that correct?

sn4-12:27

Rose: Yes. The mind is separate from the human. We can't be aware of ourselves. Logically, from that. I don't think we can be aware of our true self.

sn4-12:35

Q: And that's not what it might be.

sn4-12:38

Rose: Yes. What I'm saying about our true self, for instance, the person that you see in a mirror. You have an evaluation of that, but I don't think you have a true evaluation, if that's what I meant. You can't evaluate or know your real thoughts. You cannot evaluate or know your real thoughts.

sn4-12:55

Q: It is a question of principle, it's a question of experience.

sn4-12:59

Rose: What happens is you become. You don't know. See, knowing is relative. It's restricted to the relative dimension. When you become everything, this is no longer in a relative dimension. So there's no longer knowing, there's no longer wisdom. The wisdom, you might say, can only be exerted as a guide, something of that book. You might say that's a book of wisdom, but it's just basically a guide, a hint on what to avoid or how to get there a little faster if possible, something of that sort. But I would say we are aware, but we are never aware of our self in a wisdom-type manner. In enlightenment, you become aware. You become aware. When you say yourself, you encompass everything because everything is yourself and nothing is yourself. Let me just take this man back here.

sn4-13:57

Q: I'm interested in this idea of being rejected on. In other words, how much, while I can't control is anything, how much is the projection point?

sn4-14:07

Rose: Right. Well, that's the reason I read that. It might seem a little boring to you at the time, but it's important to start thinking about thinking. When you do, you realize that. I used to say, if you think you're thinking, we'll try to stop it. Right now, try to stop your thinking. You find that you can't. Try to start it. It started by external circumstances. Alarm clock, perhaps in the morning. We cannot control this process. It flows. It keeps on going. Then you start to take our concept that this is silver-colored. We're taught We're indoctrinated. I have a grandmatter, and I'm watching the indoctrination going on now to convince this child that things have an objective identity instead of just that she's just aware of them. We drill and drill and create what I call the double world of visualization. Not only does she see the apple, but it has to be a sound in her ear, and it has to have a spelling, an exact spelling, and this thing, so that we start to believe. Now, where this projection starts, Mary Baker-Eddy discovered a long time ago, with her, it was the universal mind.

sn4-15:29

Rose: She believed that if we were strong enough, we could change the matrix of creation. Believing, of course, that the mass mind of mankind is the creator of this illusion. And this is basically what it is. It's not what it looks like, in other words. Yes.

sn4-15:53

Q: The mind of mankind is the creator of the illusion. We're about before mankind's sister.

sn4-15:59

Rose: Now you're going into that old one about which came first, the chicken or the egg. And you can take your choice. Incidentally, here's another thing I think that people think of you. You can answer any question, for instance, a person that knows who you're talking to. And all you have to do is go into a little Einsteinian space-time continuum concept, and you realize there's no time without independent of space. And this is a relative understanding. In the absolute, there is neither time nor space. There's only the eternal presence.

sn4-16:43

Q: The point of your mission before. I think John is going to cry. He's also in this light. Do you see this light? As you said, it was in a cell, it was involved.

sn4-16:54

Rose: No, that isn't the symptom of enlightenment. That's why I was trying to differentiate. That's causing me consciousness.

sn4-16:58

Q: But have you seen this light for Yes, but that wasn't in connection with the final experience. Where did that come in?

sn4-17:05

Rose: Well, it happens just the same way in a random experience where you'll be standing someplace and there'll be a transformation. It happened to me in Death Valley. It happened to me in Death Valley. California. I thought it was a desert phenomenon at the time until I questioned people around me, and they saw nothing. But to me, the sky had changed and the sky was pulsating and that thing. I thought, Oh, boy, I'm going to hang around out here. But when I questioned the people around me, no one saw it. It went on for 45 minutes, I presume.

sn4-17:42

Q: Were you watching?

sn4-17:44

Rose: No, I was in a barracks. I walked out of the barracks and saw it. The first fellow came by, I nailed him. I said, Hey, how often does this happen here? He says, What do you mean? And I said, Well, this landscape, this effect on the atmosphere, whatever it is. It was like a… It gave you an uncanny, weird feeling. At the same time, it was very beautiful. And he said, Well, we have these every night. He kept on going. Every evening, that is, I got the next fellow. I soon realized they weren't watching it. No, I paid no attention to that. I paid no attention to that whatsoever. I didn't. I just thought it was something strange happened to me. That was all. It had a correlation of a rather beautiful experience. It's happened at different times to different degrees. As I said, that experience repeats It can repeat itself. I don't know why these things occur, but these are symptoms that you'll find if you go into a bunch of books in this manner. Nearly everybody that's had cosmic conscience experiences, they've had experience similar to that described by Bucky, which is the feeling of oneness with the universe and the seeing of light or entering light.

sn4-19:09

Q: How do you feel that the universe is there? There are a thousand people that have, especially from the East, the way that they've been stated, the way it's been in life anyway. When you look at it, you look at it, you look at it, you drop it, you go to the inside, you see it, you have a I believe everybody has to go through that.

sn4-19:39

Rose: This is what I call the process. I don't believe that you can approach the truth. I think, again, this is like postulating God and approaching God. Here, you can't approach a postulation. We know not where God is. We know not where the truth is. So what are you going to do? You either do nothing or you retreat from the garbage. That's what I meant by retreating from the garbage. Retreating from error, not approaching truth.

sn4-20:02

Q: I grant you, but you got to keep on digging.

sn4-20:07

Rose: See, I went through the same thing when I was around 20 years of age. There weren't quite as many movements as there are now. But there were just as many themes, and they had different... I mean, some of them are still operating, but you could spend a lot of money in some of them, too, and you could spend a lot of time. I've sat down certain yardsticks, and one of the yardsticks was there's no price on truth. When a man charges you, then he's selling something that he admits his prices for a price, meaning that he's prostituting something priced us for his bread and butter or whatever, a jet plane. But the second thing is that there's too much secrecy. You get in a lot of outfits that say, Oh, don't tell anybody. The reason they don't want to tell anybody, generally, is because they've been had their hand in your pocket, it could fight off some of the other candidates. But another one is the excessive mummery, ritual, vestments, special clothes, special haircuts. It doesn't matter what you're dressed like. It doesn't matter what you look like. The truth has no preference for gowns or yellow robes or wooden sandals.

sn4-21:22

Rose: This is all nonsense. So these things, if you pick out these yardside and go by them, you can save yourself a tremendous lot of time because you can rest assured that the majority of the people who violate those concepts are not worth fooling. That's all. Yeah.

sn4-21:42

Q: Does the amendment always carry a visual experience?

sn4-21:46

Rose: No, no. No visual. That's the difference. There is no visual experience.

sn4-21:52

Q: How did you start with the visual experience?

sn4-21:55

Rose: No, that was I told him. That was causing me consciousness. No. In enlightenment, there is no right nor left. There is no high nor low.

sn4-22:05

Q: Yes. You talked about the desert experience. Where is it that caused you to believe that you were Well, the experience, that's all I can tell you.

sn4-22:22

Rose: The realization, the realization, that's all. No, no, no, no, no, In fact, like this talking of symptoms, I say, might be bad for you people because you'd love to say, Where do I get that? I'll try to pick that up and I'll try to... This is what goes on a tremendous lot in a lot of spiritual work, is that people study what is spiritual. For instance, this is spiritual. So they walk around like this, presuming it's going to be a transformation, or they look up like this until their eyeballs lock in the top of their head. In fact, I've seen people who are fooling with this kriya yoga. They get their eyeballs so they wouldn't come back down. In fact, that was a mark of spirituality, be rolling around San Paco. Yeah. I don't think there's so much that was projected upon.

sn4-23:31

Q: That implies the project that something is project.

sn4-23:35

Rose: We did it the best day. Right.

sn4-23:38

Q: Now, there's two other sides to that point. One is, some people say, Don't try to change the world, change yourself. That means you take full responsibility. You say we shouldn't do that because it was a project. The other side of the point is that it avoids responsibility, as you said, with the project. We don't have to be responsible for what happens.

sn4-23:57

Rose: You could take that if you choose. What do you really- Well, right. See, I believe if you want to be honest with yourself, you realize you're not running this show. I mean, it's nice to think that we're, for instance, one of the Christian concepts is we accept responsibility and therefore, immortality. If we want to be immortal individual creatures, we have to accept a certain amount of responsibility as an individual God functioning in the macrocosm of one big God or something. I don't know who exactly where they're driving. But the thing is that when you sit down in meditation and finally become honest with yourself, you'll know that you're not moving anything. You can't even control your own thoughts. But that if you operate on that basis of not being able to do anything, you find yourself in a category of people who rot. We live in permeating all great steps, esoteric, religious, spiritual steps. We always encounter the paradox. You've got to be able to walk with the paradox because this is the sly way of outwitting this impossibility of everything being the opposite of what it is. Whenever you speak of good, you're immediately identifying bad.

sn4-25:19

Rose: Consequently, we are helpless, except by virtue of the fact that we have an idea that we may not be helpless, and we have to go through that motion. By doing, we become action, whereas the other way, we become futility. We are what we do. Now, there's a day when this, as I said, this wisdom builds up and this capable your ability builds up and you think, boy, I'm developing this action. I can really do anything I wish to. And then the realization comes again that you can't do anything. So the head busts with its own fat. And the only when it busts with its own fat-headedness is when the true realization comes. But you have no choice. You've got to fatten your head up before you can chop it off. They wanted to do anything. There's no reason. That's just as good as doing something. It depends on the individual. If the individual has the itch, and sometimes the old Timer said that the reason people do things is because they were before birth programmed to be born into an active type of creature. I don't know. I can't give you any reason for doing things.

sn4-26:35

Rose: Back here.

sn4-26:36

Q: Do you think that there's an exchange of reincarnation? Did everyone eventually realize it is enlightened?

sn4-26:47

Rose: That's like I told you, the prayer of the old Zen Buddhist was to never stop until everything, every sentient creature was enlightened or was aware. But I think that the concept of reincarnation is a concept until proven, likewise. It can well be a rationalization against effort. Most all Zen teachers will avoid it and say, Hey, we realize we have time now. We can look at the calendar, but we can't see the calendar of the next life. It's incumbent upon us to act as though we only had this time to act.

sn4-27:23

Q: I have never had any knowledge of who I was before or I was.

sn4-27:30

Rose: I may have been a rock. I don't know.

sn4-27:32

Q: Another thing, do you feel that there's any way of directly experiencing, say, the teachings that someone has a path instead of the past, say, some meditative techniques? Or you call it, you say the truth, and so many people throughout the ages have claimed that their teachings was the truth. Is there any way of directly experiencing the teaching through, say, these people in, say, another form in a master or a positive form?

sn4-28:09

Rose: See, when you're talking that way, you're creating. In other words, you're not giving us anything to go by. And even if a man did exist, if we knew beyond the shadow of a doubt that a guy like Buddha Dharma existed, for instance, and we wanted to go back and pick up Buddha Dharma's mind, it would be more propitious for us to pick up our own mind, which we have right with us, because that's where the truth is. They didn't go back and tried to emulate the symptoms of another man. Let's go back to your end..

sn4-28:37

Q: Do you know how to talk about how to be better in the eye. It's not just in the eye. It's in the eye. They're going to say, Oh.

sn4-28:53

Rose: Well.

sn4-28:58

Q: Do you have any other objective?

sn4-29:07

Rose: What else can you do but work for yourself unless you're a hypocrite?

sn4-29:11

Q: That's what I'm saying to my person, to work yourself and work with yourself. You are the people, I'm for the people who come in.

sn4-29:17

Rose: Oh, yes, I don't doubt that. Why? Because it didn't help your part. Well, because the simple fact that when a person has a realization, they try to help somebody else have a realization.

sn4-29:26

Q: Well, instead of come up and give them a What do you mean?

sn4-29:30

Rose: You have a better bank account. There's no utilitarian value on Zen. In other words, there's no point in promoting or expanding or enlarging upon the illusion.

sn4-29:39

Q: What do you mean maintain?

sn4-29:44

Rose: What good are other people? They're just bodies. Sure. Their essences have value. Their souls, if you wish to call it that, have value. But if you're talking about human compatibility, then in the wrong department because that's a utilitarian. That's Vaseline you're talking about, as opposed to the realization of who you are or who's greasing the Vaseline. It's better to know who's using the Vaseline, which I call social compatibility.

sn4-30:20

Q: How do you view the concept of love? Is that something that...

sn4-30:26

Rose: Basically, most love is basically a make-up. It's an ego. It's an ego, yeah. It's a plain God while getting what you want. When you say the same thing about Zen, that same thing that you made when you said the same thing about Zen. What's that?

sn4-30:46

Q: Playing God by getting what you want.

sn4-30:49

Rose: The difference is that Zen arrives at God or arrives at the absolute and it doesn't play. In fact, it's just the opposite. The advice is not to play on it, not to pretend, or not to be an egotistic. In fact, the moment before enlightenment, or it can only last for a short period of time, this surrender of all the egos. And that is one of them. The ego of physical survival melts. Death is experience. With that also is the possibility, the ego of spiritual immortality, which would be the equivalent of playing God or thinking you're worth it. In other words, the thought comes to you, Am I really worth surviving? Who am I to think that I should last forever? You can understand that we don't seem to be worth it. Here's billions of people. What does the universe need with us? This is a common sense evaluation. When it hits your mind, then that realization that you may have no immortality at all becomes a conviction of possibility, and you drop it. And that is a spiritual death as well as a physical death. So it isn't basically playing God.

sn4-31:59

Q: I was curious. Before you mentioned that thinking of the amos as a high function. Yes. Does that include emotionality along with that? Like understanding?

sn4-32:17

Rose: Yeah. Everything that you do or experience is, it goes through the computer.

sn4-32:25

Q: Do you just separate a thought from emotions?

sn4-32:30

Rose: Emotions? Well, it's just a class. When you think about emotions, you may feel, and you think about feeling. There's a difference between when you put your hand on a hot stove and the thought of pulling your hand off in the future when you touch a stove again. Now, that's feeling as opposed to the thinking about the feeling. In that respect, if you're talking about emotions as being a separate feeling, then you would be thinking about the feeling. But they would not be thoughts themselves. They would feelings.

Yes.

sn4-33:03

Q: There is a statement I ran across, and it says, You must kill the Buddha. I may seem straight out, it's not that I'm.

sn4-33:18

Rose: Sure, that's all right.

sn4-33:19

Q: I'm trying to do is have a straightforward relationship. I'm trying to relate to you as I would in the other name. And it's not going to be in my talking.

sn4-33:36

Rose: Sure.

sn4-33:37

Q: I'm trying to relate to you without moving in your other hand. And there's nothing I'm trying to, why is it happening? My next question was, do you know that you're going to have three more meetings with her here in the United States?

sn4-33:55

Rose: I don't know anybody in the Pittsburgh area. Paul Woodman from Tulsa, Oklahoma, or Woodman from San Antonio, Texas. That's the only closest one. Well, no. I don't know if Fouhian is still living. The teacher I've mentioned is in Connecticut. So he may be... I have not encountered more than a handful of people in my life, to be honest with you.

sn4-34:19

Q: Did you have a teacher?

sn4-34:20

Rose: No. I looked up Pouillan after this thing happened in order to... I studied transmission with him. But the original experience didn't occur as a result of an experience split in. I realized the need to convey. Just because you have something happen to your change of being doesn't mean you're able to help somebody else into this situation. So you go back to the drawing board and start trying to communicate with people with the language that you really don't need. Because when you get to a certain point, we have what we in the group what we call Rapport. When you reach a certain point in Rapport, there's no need for talking. Your two heads are one. So constantly, it's something that has to be learned. It's something that has to be acquired. I deliberately sought this man out when I saw that he was able to transmit, I decided I wouldn't be able to also. But there's a little story told in connection with that, that there's possibly people that are pretending you're transmitted are not enlightened. And there's people who are enlightening, can't transmit. He had to transmit. Paul Wood couldn't transmit. He tried to. He tried to get everybody to read the Lord's prayer, but it was just a prosaic thing.

sn4-35:37

Rose: It didn't seem to have any meaning to them. And they tell a story about a fish. That's a good joke, of course. It's a Zen story, but I think it's a joke. The fish receives enlightenment. And they brought the fish to the teacher, and they said, Master, this fish has been enlightened. What do we do with it? And he said, Eat it. It can't talk. It can't transmit. So eat the I think.

sn4-36:03

Q: I'd like to ask you, Barton said that you predicted that the number of people that were being liked would have increased with time. Do you think that's true?

sn4-36:11

Rose: Or what's the down in your work? Well, I don't know about that. I don't know about that. But I think that there has to be a certain complexity of thought. The carnal intellect has to be challenged by traumatic thought. If a person lives on a rather primitive plane, like if he's getting bananas off the tree and doesn't have to worry about the income taxes, he's less likely to be enlightened than the man that leads a highly complex mental type life. Our civilization is getting more demanding upon the mind of man, and consequently, if that man applies that same computer to the spiritual problem, he may come up much quicker with an answer. That's my belief. The life Richard Buckey is an unusual example. This man had what I consider a rather traumatic life. He'd been half frozen to death and lost one leg, I think, as a result of freezing.

sn4-37:12

Q: All these people were having to have to have time Right.

sn4-37:17

Rose: St. John of the Cross was practically tortured in jail. He was thrown in jail and tortured.

sn4-37:24

Q: The reason why I brought up the point why he knew me, I thought about that very intensely for about a year. I tried it. I didn't do anything for about six months. I became very bored. I went to the other extreme. I tried to do everything, and that's what I'm currently in the process of doing now.

sn4-37:50

Rose: You got to keep fighting. There's no point not doing anything. You got plenty of time to rest in the cemetery. When we got the old muscles, we might as well move.

sn4-38:01

Q: I'd say 10 years of my life, 10 heavy years between the ages of 21 and 31 were spent an intense activity and intense frustration and despair and conviction that there was nothing, that everything was garbage, and that people were just fooling each other with spiritual concepts about an essence.

sn4-38:35

Rose: I think if a person is halfway sensitive, you have to go through this. There's no answer. You don't get the answer right away. If you don't get the answer, you're bound to get disgusted. And especially if you run into chicanery, you run into... Get into several groups or ventures in which it's all nonsense or just a big racket or something of that sort.

sn4-39:01

Q: Don't you say you receive the right of way for the result from your current system?

sn4-39:07

Rose: Don't think so. The first two years, I devote strictly to giving them off a dope. Yeah.

sn4-39:20

Q: A lot of psychologists say that a person's greatest need for love, I think in this case, for filling life, that's how infamously you're going to get this involved. Do you put much value in that?

sn4-39:36

Rose: Well, that sounds like the way you should raise your cattle. If you want them to give milk. Keep them contented. Give them the right vitamins and the right sexual stimulation. They'll give milk. Yes.

sn4-39:57

Q: For the audience who's becoming Bucky says one in a million.

sn4-40:04

Rose: But of course, these aren't too bad for the people here because there's about 30, 40 people here, and there's 200 million people in the country.

sn4-40:12

Q: Why is it centered here?

sn4-40:15

Rose: I don't know. I'm too lazy. I'm too lazy to go any place else, I guess.

sn4-40:22

Q: What do you think enlightenment in there? Is there anything that you think it would be a part of your self? Well, I don't think, for instance, if we get into that, I was talking to the lady back there earlier.

sn4-40:34

Rose: I don't think that you could set rules. For instance, I don't believe that diet is important. It don't matter whether you're a vegetarian or whether you eat hamburgers. I think this is all can become a ritual in which we place an egotistic importance on. Somebody think we're better because we've been on some crazy rice diet, I think, for a while. The same thing is our meditation, that you should meditate in a certain place. All my meditation was done on my feet. When I sit down, I go to sleep. So I would go for walks. When I'd walk, and sometimes I'd sit. But I mean, if I thought I was getting a little slug, I'd get up and walk. I don't think to prescribe things, you give formulas, sometimes damages one person while it helps another. And as far as the idea of sex, each case, again, is different. But I do say this, that if you want results, results according to the laws of physics and the laws of spirituality are the same. Results are proportional to energy applied. And if you've got 16 running faucets, you may not build up much pressure.

sn4-41:50

Q: Do you think there are higher levels that you could think? Me?

sn4-41:56

Rose: I don't think so. It I am not saying there are higher levels, but I think for the human awareness to put up with, stand, tolerate, and live after the adversary, I think that perhaps after death, people may experience something. I don't know.

sn4-42:19

Q: Their enlightenment only pulls your stuff to it.

sn4-42:23

Rose: It can only be understood by me. This is true. Yeah. It can be like with Paul Wood. If another person you encounter talks to you, they will understand. That's all. As far as the value of it, there is no value as far as what I call what you call I'm very in value. There's no diploma.

sn4-42:48

Q: Are you happier now, then you're the only part?

sn4-42:51

Rose: Quite the contrary, I'm freer of happiness. Right.

sn4-42:58

Q: How do you deal with the idea that there are four billion universes.

sn4-43:04

Rose: I thought I knew all the ones I had projected out there.

sn4-43:12

Q: This one I need to remind you now. My view is that every person's universe or the whole universe is a human that came from this so conscious mind, essentially isn't there.

sn4-43:32

Rose: Every man is being that. Yeah. There's anything that man dreams about can be possible. It seems as though things that are or may be the result of man's dreaming. For instance, in the old ancient writings, they talk about the inbreeding and the outbreeding of the universe,, in which the universe expands. This is the explosion, if you want to call it that. Then there's an implosion. This was that every person in the universe, or the whole universe, is a human that came 200 years ago in India. The ancient spoke of this inbreeding and outbreeding in which the universe would expand, and then it goes back into a black hole like the handkerchief of a magician, stuck in. They're looking at stars. There's no universe. When you realize the possibility of this, you can realize that it's all, that everything is in the head of the magician. We happen to be the magician.

sn4-44:30

Q: You don't have to.

sn4-44:38

Rose: I could be a liar. You should treat me with doubt. Don't accept. This is not a point of argument.

Footnotes

End