1982-Spring-Intensive-at-Farm

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Title	1982-Spring-Intensive-at-Farm
Recorded date	Spring
Location	Farm
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Source	DM dm-1982-Spring-Intensive-at-256K
No. of MP3 files	9 mp3 files: 31, 31, 30, 1, 30, 30, 30, 30
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Link to PDF	http://distribution.direct-mind.org/ Or try http://selfdefinition.org/rose/
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URL at direct-mind.org	https://www.direct-mind.org/index.php/1982-Spring-Intensive-at-Farm
	For access to this wiki or the audio files please send an email to: editors@direct-mind.org
Revision timestamp	20240812000622

sides-3-4-and-7-8-are-both-marked-3-4

Important information, direct-mind, healing, other subjects. Need to start.

Richard Rose, Spring Intensive 1982, Farm

Version June 1, 2024

Notes

Name resolution: This is at the farm. Earlier this tape was thought to be misnamed, but participants had been asked for their definition of “direct-mind”, which would not be normal during a TAT meeting. The TAT meeting was Jim Burns arrives at dm-2-12:20

At dm2-16:58 Rose refers in past tense to April TAT meeting. So this could be 1982-0417-Spring-TAT-meeting-Rose-and-Burns

4 tapes

Dating of talks

File dm1

Total time: 30:55 dm1-00:00

title

(tape recorder noise)

No, she wasn’t. She wanted to heal people well she was kept at it (noise) but she in order to and the couple that with (noise) that was the idea.

Q. But if she was finding salvation through a man, did she understand the process?

R. I don’t think it’s fiding salvation ...

Q. But I mean the fact that you keep her had straight.

R. She was old enough probably to have been married. I don’k know. I didn’t ever talk to her about her private life to get her point across. But what the sexual life was, or married life, I didn’t bother to ask her.

The thing is, there are things that are said very plainly by very many people and, you know, people just brush them aside. And one of the things is, if you want to find your Self, capital-s Self, you have to become as a little child.

One of our egos is that we’re an adult; and we somehow have to get by that. We have to somehow realize the reason for that, for wanting to be that. An adult is something superior. But the child (interruption) the adult is a fool. It’s like yourself: you’re studying a lot about the human mind, you are studying more confusion.

Yeah, a simple truth, if it hits you and says “boom”, and you say, “hey, Jesus, why dodn’t I think of that?” But I found, after - only after I made the trip. And I come back and I’d hear stuff quoted out of the Bible, and I’d say, “Son of a bitch, I know what that means now.

You’ve got to become, a woman has to become as a little child and so does a man. But a woman has to become as a little girl. If you get a chance sometime, talk to Cecy. Cecy came here and realized that she needed to become a little girl. And she saw, she entered, the little girl stage, to see the simplicity of her mind. Only through that stage of simplicity. Not through the complexity of, “I am this, I am that.”

Gordon? The first time I met Cecy I thought she was kind of, I perceived something happy about her.

R. She’s happy. Cecy is very happy (interruption) I make hell for everybody

Q. To be like a little child is to end answers and start like a sense of wonder.

R. Well, what happens when you start, when you first indulge in sex: if you are anywhere cognizant of the first sexual experience you had, where it was idio-sex - idiosex sometimes isn’t the first sex that people take that’s external. But even the idiosexual experiences, your state of mind changes.

In other words, you’ve had one state of mind up until that time. Maybe upset at times by externl circumstances like one of the parents cracking you on the rear or giving you hell, humiliating you, or some kid punching you in the nose. But this does not affect what I call the essence, the quantum energy, the unity of the mind.

dm1-04:25

And as soon as the child indulges in sex, it immediately opens the door, and the state of mind changes.

Q. Changes or adds ??

R. Haha. It opens the door. It doesn’t add. It opens the door. You might say it adds an entity.

Q. And the child is losing or its gaining?

R. It loses its individuality. Because it’s a house with two guests, instead of one. Sometimes they, to drive the first guest out they take on a second. And then after a couple of those guests ...

That’s like I say, if you get married ... if you shack up with a bunch of women and then you get married, your wife will live with all those women. noise And most women know it. I mean, most women ... You learn this by associating with people. I knew a guy who married a girl, he lived right near me. In fact he’s mentioned in this witch story, he tipped me off to the witch.1,2 noise needed a place to stay. But he had what I thought was a pretty nice woman. A devout Catholic and all that sort of thing. Well she got miserable, she got mean. And he saie, “I don’t know what to make of Eileen.” I said, “You goddamn goof, you ought to know what to make out of her, her psyche is picking up that you’re pulling ?? She disn’t have any logical reason, but this illogical irritation in her was more accurate than his own state of mind about himself. In other words, she disn’t have any proof for it. And she was hesitating, maybe kicking herself in the pants, probably, for being unfair to him. Because she didn’t have any proof. She didn’t even susspect that there was anything going on. She just decided she disliked him. ?? She was making life miserable for him.

He says, “Aggh, that’s got nothing to do with it. She doesn’t know anything.” Consciously she doesn't know anything. But intuitively she knows. “You don’t believe it? Stop messing with the other woman and see if this changes her attitude.” He did. I said, “You’ve got three kids. What’s more important, some other woman? ?? I said, “What’s more important? Your three kids and friendship with this girl for th rest of your life?” For another appetite deal, that’s all. It’s just an appetite. You’ve got a cute little girl missed some She kind of went nuts over a charismatic ?? charismatic Cathy. ?? There was a guy down here from New York, his wife was trying to backcheck? him and the judge ... dm1-07:54

The thing is that, I don’t know, you can ... but it boiled sown, anything I say is basically not something I learned in a book. ?? So that’s poor logic, see. So I could be nuts.

But time, chemistry, everything else validates my intuitions. This is what I realized. I was very timid when I was younger ??? I lived according to my intuition. And I’m damn glad I did. To actually lay it down on the line and say this is the truth of things, why, you know, I didn’t have a lot of logic at the time to back it up. But it works. And I maintain that you cannot know the Truth, the capital-t Truth ?? except small-t truth is about yourself. I was telling Suzanne - I can’t remember his name now - Suzanne last night, that you’ve got to tell the truth to everybody. You’ve got to tell the truth to your friends. But you don’t have to put yourself in jail to tell the truth. You don’t have to tell the cop. You don’t have to tell the wolf. The man who attacks you, you don’t have to tell him the truth. You’d be a fool to tell him the truth. But you have to tell yourself the truth about he lie you told to him. In other words, you’ve got to know what you’re doing. It’s alright to kill, to steal, to rob and everything else. But don’t ever deny it to yourself, that you’re a thief, you’re a liar.

dm1-09:40

Q. So, people’s morality is based on not getting caught.

Rose has walking away so no answer, phone rings, people talking.

Q. I just a ?? before, and it wasn’t working to good Q. Swedenborg Q. Some teacher, Jack Lising, I gave him a chapter out of that. A couple chapters on entities and that. He started talking about Cayce, so I gave him that book.

R comes back

R. Read that book, “Operators and Things”.3 Have you ever read it? Written by a woman. (Barbara O’Brien) That is very typical. She blames everything on ... the entities at the Greyhound bus terminal, not the terminal, the organization., the big shots in it. That they actually set up these terminals as a place for the entities to operate or something, I don’t know. It was ??? The thing was that they got their hooks into her and he went nuts from getting hooked. Theey hook yuo.

?? my boy thought he was running the show ?? and I sent it to him so he would read it. Because I think it’s very good for people to read, ?? who are very confident, You see the symptoms. The symptoms come on very slowly. And it’s always with a profound ego. People with a profoun ego think, “Oh, I’m in control. I can take a shot of dope once in a while, we smoke dope every Saturay night, we’ve been doing it so long, nothing is going to happen, no use getting paranoid over a little bit of dope. (interruption) Everything is. In order to trap you into anything ...

For instance, I’ve seen men who would do things, repeatedly. I see women doing it ?? is aggressive and she ran into trouble. But I’ve seen men who I thought were deliberately trying to get into the penitentiary. I mean not consciously doing it, but I mean their actions were so deliberate, that they would just persist, and persist, and then, almost like Gary Gilmore, cursed the judge out to get a sentence. Because why? When they get into the penitentiary they were able to enter into their masochistic role, under some sodomist. The “males” didn’t get in there. I don’t think the males in the penitentiary goes in there deliberately to pick up the punks. But the punks gravitate in. They gravitate in. They are set up by circumstances from another dimension.

dm1-13:51

But you watch their motions. You’ll see their motions, that they’ll go out and put a ... there’s no reason why they pull the stuff they pull. In other words, they rob a store. They get a few drinks in them and what do they do? They rob a ... and everybody’s watching them while they do it. They’re bound to go to jail. But t’s a role. It’s the ideal role for getting into the punk pose. Because you can always say, “I’m not really a deliberate punk, I got in here and people took advantage of me.” But they deliberately robbed a store, and then an another. Off course they had to get drunk, to give themselves the courage to put themselves in that position, in jail.

But going back to this business of defining yourself through the “child” approach: to me this is the only method that people can do it. You ... well, I’m saying the average person. It’s real simplicity through celibacy. A child is celibate.

Q. The child also doesn’t have the same physiology as the adult.

R. Yes, and because of that same physiology he can’t reach enlightenment. The real ... because ... glands .. he’s under domination. I think the infant, again, here’s the paradox, the little child is one with God. Ok, we seduce him, the parents seduce him, and little by little you drag him away. Now he can’t get fre pf the parental seduction, force, and position and mind-state, and that sort of thing, until he’s in his teens. The wean him. He can say go to hell I don’t have to pay attention to you anymore. He can go out and play the drug and whorehouse route - or he can go inside himself, and go back through the period of? which he was a slave, his parental state of mind.

dm1-16:18

But it’s simplistic. You see, the thing is that the realization is not of complexity, it’s a return to simplicity. And what’s going to keep us away from it is our indulgence in complex rationalizations. I maintain that, just like things I hear, occasionally arguments. Arguments for.

I meant to tell the guys that if anybody has gallon jugs, they have juice in them, to send them down. If you see Beigelman. Beigelman probably gets a lot of pickle jars, ask if he’ll save them. Those gallon pickle jars. Because we the stuff up here in large quantities ...

But the thing is that the child, even if he reaches the age of ten, and were enlightened at the age of ten, he couldn’t function. It wouldn’t happen to him in the first place, because the conditions couldn’t be imposed. He’s projected into this life for a certain reason. And it’s not a curse that he’s weaned by his parents, or I call it, seduced, (I’m just using those words to point out the route? ?? he is taken out ? a perfect condition ? put into a goddamn pigpen.) That he couldn’t handle it. He couldn’t use it. He couldn’t do anything with it, just become an autistic child.

You may meet one of these when he comes down here today, a man from Pittsburgh, a 50-year old autistic. [ date cue , check for Burns at the farm tape. See notes above and on wiki ] A child who refused to grow up. And he’s an enlightened man.

Q. In order to learn how to speak, we have to learn what we meean by words. And I think that’s one of the big waus ?? happens.

R. Right. Well, speaking is, that’s the Tower of Babel. I don’t think it was a real thing, I think it was a symbolic thing ?? I remember saying something here a while ago and I cut it out short, that you get it out of a book. You’ve got to The words, I’m using a hell of a lot of words now, but what I’m fighting for is to touch your internal mind. Not prove logically. “Look at the chicken, the bull, the cow, etc.” And you’ll see a plan. The plan goes through all species. Don’t presume that you can violate that plan and be a super-person, because all the super-people I have ever met - they’re dying. Physically dying - at the age of twenty. See, you can’t know, the people can’t know because the door as been shut on them, on their own intuition. You have to have an intuition when you’re dying. I had that intuition. I knew that I didn’t dare have a sexual experience if I didn’t want to lose my state of mind.

And when I had a sexual experience, I was old enough that it didn’t affect me, it didn’t cripple my intuition. And of course I knew I had to get the hell away from the party because it was a very beautiful experience and a friend and an ideal type of relationship. But unfortunately it happened during the Depression and I couldn’t afford to get married. The only thing to do was ...

Q. ?/ lave with honor

R. Right, clean up and get the hell out of the scene

dm1-20:14

R. But I maintain that you’ve got to go back, it’s got to be done. Words are a curse, that’s true. ... And I have demonstrated this. Now this is where your direct-mind science comes in. I’ve been able to touch a few people directly, and it paralyzed them when they realized it. It actually paralyzed them when they realized what was my state of mind. (LOUD NOISE!) ... and they could pick up an absolute state of mind, on a couple of occasions.4 And that’s the reason ... ?? a little too inaccurate, you know. Because she was a fireball. (who?) I like to see the fireball too, in another person. She used to be very capable of running a business - she ran a business for the college up there, ran the whole ?? education? ran the ?? and everything. But I think she’s resting.

Of course you do this. I rested I think for seven years. (in his 20s) I was celibate. I wasn’t spiritual, I was resting in preparation for the next step, the next shock.

Q. So sometimes when things are going badly you ? you don’t really realize it’s just another step in the road.

R. You do the best you can to keep the ?? you resign yourself ?? you’ll go. Don’t violate the rules. Be a little girl. But don’t lament that things aren’t happening for your benefit.

Q. Don’t lament because ...?

R. Because you’re not getting a piece. When I was in my twenties I’d get mad, “Jesus, I’m a nice guy, I don’t have the clap, or gonorrhea, I’ve got hair on my head, but these girls don’t like me.” You know, I think they sensed that I was a bookworm. Sad but ??. I wasn’t getting any answers either. I didn’t realize that when you get the answer there ?? there would be a change in me. The only answer ... I knew that too, I realized that when I was twenty-one that I wasn’t going to get a verbal answer, or material knowledge. So I knew that something had to happen, like the angels blow their bugles and I’d get hit with an arrow and boom, I’d be changed.

I didn’t know exactly what was supposed to happen, but nothing was happening. And I thought I was on a fool’s trip. That was the big thing that would go through my head. When I get that I’ll say well the hell with this then. I hadn’t got any proof that I would be in this 5 or 6 years, I’m going out and get drunk, get a new state of mind, But I couldn’t drink. I never could driink. I can’t even smote cigarettes.

Q. What would happen?

R. I’d just get sick, that’s all. I don’t have the gut to stand heavy booze, I don’t like the taste of beer, except in real hot weather I’d go get a beer. But as soon as it gets cold I can’t stand to drink beer. And booze, I’ve got it sitting all over my house. I’ve got all kinds of booze. I’ve got three bottles of tequila - people knew I liked tequila so they gave me some, but I never opened the bottles. I’ll take a drink every once in a while, but I like something I can sip, I don’t like to load it in.

dm1-24:02

But anyhow, I’d rebel. Bsut nothing ever happened in those experiences of rebellion.. I never caught any flies. I couldn’t drink. I didn’t try to drink. I’d go out and try to find a girl maybe. Never got to first base. Because I wouldn’t associate with whores. It had to be somebody who was clean, and the clean girls were all projecting things on the evil men. Virgins project on the whoremasters. They always wind up with them.

Q. (woman) When I was a virgin I didn’t find ...

R. You didn’t find a whoremaster, huh?

Q. No, I felt good? that I didn’t.

R. Yeah, right, you had a protective? inhibition? That you projected

Q. I’m sure I did. ...

R. Sure. I’ve got a daughter. You’re a very honest person, in many ways. And my daughter - I’ve got two daughters, One is a very honest girl and the other - she’s a very brilliand girl but she uses all her brilliance to outwit herself.

Q. That’s mee too.

R. But Kathy’s aunt could pick up some guys who were absolutely worthless. This was her second husband. She had two little girls ?? or not. ?? dragged two kids with her. She picked up a guy in Atlantic City who wanted to stay in the United States. He was a Greek, a Greek boy about 18 years old, and he needed a passport, you know, citizenship. So he married her. And he made bets with the other Greeks that he was marrying a virgin. They had, he gambled in a gambling house, and they had all these people in th gambling house bet him that he wasn’t getting a virgin.

Q. Well how would they ever know?

R. Well, they hang out a bloody sheet, you know. That’s the practice in Greece. And the day after they are married and the marriage is consummated, the guy hangs the sheet out the front window, a big red spot.

Q. (laughs)

R. Oh, I thought everybody knew that. That’s the big fetish, to get a virgin. That’s the reason all the males and females in Greece are anally oriented. The big brother works on them, because you don’t dare violate where the dowry emanates from.

But anyhow, this guy used her. She worked and kept him. She never got pregnant by him, I don’t know why. She got pregnant by another fellow. Well, she finally divorced him. He wasn’t a bad guy but he was just a bum. ?? implacable? ?? Went out to Phoenix and married a Mexican. And he’s an alcoholic. She knew he was an alcoholic. But she thought, her magical nature would change him, and he would love her so much that he’d quit drinking.

Q. That’s not very brilliant at all.

R. (laughs) No, she isn’t brilliant intellectually, she’s got a good intuition. But you can’t ... that’s what I’m telling you ... virgins can have an IQ of 150, but when it comes to projecting onto a male they will always outwit themselves.

Q. ?? they just don’t know what is happening.

dm1-27:38

Q. (woman) I truly was so frightened. That’s why I’d never do anything ?? because it was such a weight on my head. The psychological thing I was putting myself through. It was ridiculous. And I had to shed that. So I went out and got laid. And it was basically for my mind ...

R. ... survived

Q. Oh, I would have survived, for sure. But I just wasn’t, at the time it just didn’t seem worth it to me. I didn’t value my virginity. I was really just afraid.

R. Mmm. Believe me, man created philosophy; nature ?? hormone shot. (laughs) Philosophy goes down the drain?

Q. ... this reformer, you see it like in your daughter noise

R. Maternal

Q-woman. Men like the ?? whores ... promiscuous woman

Q. That’s like a Joan of Arc syndrome

R. aternal! It’s the mother. You’ve got little babies and big babies.

dm1-29:01

R. And of course ... I don’t know why ... I might say I saved a woman. I married a girl who was pregnant. But it didn’t occur to me that I was being a salvationist. I like babies. That’s one weakness I have. I always was crazy about babies. And I knew they were monsters, just miniature monsters, you know, ? size of them, play hell with you. But nevertheless it’s programming ... animals are programmed to like the kittens and puppies even. Most animals in nature don’t bother the young of others, except some predators you know.

Of course one reason I got married was I heard a voice. I heard a voice saying, “That is the woman you’re going to marry.” It didn’t say, “you can marry”, no, it said very clearly, “This is the woman you’re going to marry.” 5I wasn’t looking at her either. I heard some scuttlebutt from he telephone conversation: somebody said she was pregnant. Her brother worked for me. I knew the family. I knew the family since she was a little child.

But I definitely think it (marriage?) was a an instance of one of the steps you have to go through, that’s all. and I never thought ... I was her sparring partner. (laughs) I wasn’t physical, but “Yap, yap, yap. You did this. How come you didn’t wash the dishes? Why is this goddamn sink ...” break in tape dm1 ENDS AT 30:55

File dm2

Total time: 30:47 dm2-00:00

title

dm2-00:00

... she’s the leaser of the whole tribe of them.

But the thing I started to tell you was, I felt that, because of the need to be celibacy (celibate), and the woman is equated with non-celibacy, meaning the enemy. interjection and this isn’t a good pose to have. It’s nice to do it ...

Q. (woman) The guys were talking about this last night. We were having a debate and some of the guys, men who have chosen to be celibate. And after a while I’m wondering if that physical removal doesn’t engender some kind of psychological removal.

R. Sure, sure. You, but don’t take it, that’s what I was trying to tell you about George. George ain’t celibate. George is a nut. You’re wasting your time with him.

Q. I ended up really understanding, after Steve, whatever, Charlie Gere from Laugh Time, I was so used to listening, like, he’d make one of his cracks and everybody would laugh. And I said to the guys last night, I said, you know, that is ?? and Ben said , “ thought that guy was obnoxious and I wanted to punch his teeth in.” I said, “But you didn’t support me.”

R. But what’s the use? You’re getting your education. You mustn’t ... laughs ... you ain’t supposed to jump in there and

P. I heard that before.

R. hat before.

P. A thousand and one versions on why he’s better than women and why ...

R. Oh, I didn’t hear what he was saying. I shut my ears when he talks. I can’t stand him.

Q. Well he’s cool

R. He’s a likable guy, sure, but he rattles. He comes up here - I’l tell you, I think I understood what he does. He desn’t vocalize well, when he’s got a few beers in him when he gets here. But he’s got a business in his house, his mother is still living, and his wife is subject to the mother but superior to him. Now both of them chewed him out

Q. Well he’s really led be out ??

R. Right. And he’s got a boy. He’s got a son, or a couple kids. He’s got a boy he brings him out here once in a while. And he just gets in his difficulty and takes off in the woods. Because he can’t go to the office. There’s no office, it’s in the basement. So then he -- good-naturedly he’ll come out and say to me, “Well, I had to get away from the bitch. ?? Goddammit, ? The bitch was But then he gets a few beers in him, ?? (laughs) gets away from his wife. But he doesn’t leave her. He doesn’t hit her. He doesn’t mistreat her. It’s just this ... and you get the same talk among women. Tha’s what I was trying to tell you last night, you get women together and, even where there’s men. I’ve been in most every group where you get men and women, husbands and wives together, the women vocally betrayed their husbands. In some manner.

Q. Yeah, I think that’s contemptible. If you don’t like someone then get away from them. If you can’t accept him for what he is, then ...

dm2-3:00 R. We had a fellow come down here, he was a friend of Jim Burns, George Blazer. George brought his wife, because he thought that my wife andhis wife would like each other or something of that sort, they would get along. And this woman came down. Now here she’s 45-50 years old, I don’t know, somewhere in the bracket, she’s wearing a real close, clinging, knit suit, and she’s doing this (bending down, making preening movements) in front of me. Like this see. Seeing if I’m looking. As if checking her shoulder to see if somebody’s watching her. And I thought, “Christ, what the hell are you playing for?” Nobody here but an old man. And of course Singer was there. But of course, they were talking about men.

Ordinarily my wife used to kind of razz me, that’s part of the female game, they razz the old man in front of everybody. But she wasn’t too active that particular day. But George’s wife said, “Well, as far as George is concerned, I wouldn’t even live with him (contempt in voice). There’s just one thing about him, he’s good in bed.” I didn’t say anything, but after they left I said, “What do you think of Marian?” And she says, “Don’t bring her back. I’ve got no damned use for her.”

She liked George, my wife liked George, he was friendly, outgoing, and he was too much of a kindly-hearted thing. He just grinned when she said it. And I thought, Jesus, what is this? Why do you have to make an ass out of the mate? How can you go back and go to bed with him, after making an ass out of him?

dm2-4:41

Q. ? won’t take her anywhere?

R. Well, hey, you’ve got to look at that too. He owes her a lot. You get in debt to people. I got in debt to my wife. My wife took care of my parents when they were dying. You take a lot of shit. And she’s still my friend. And she used to ridicule me too. But when the chips were down, this is friendship. It goes beyond these petty ... It’s like this guy here: Patrick is no enmy to women. He’s just a confused guy with a lot of little spots of Zen in him, a little readings on Zen. The guy she (Pat) was arguing again last night. George Patrick. His last name is Patrick.

The biggest part of this stuff you don’t ... you’ll hear it ... if he’s around any time you’ll hear the same thing

Q. But you questioned for a second and that whole facade breaks down ...

R. Right, right. The thing is, don’t take people for what they say. Always ...

Q. I said, “What do you mean by that?” And then when we started getting into it, then I said, “You’re really cool, now I understand. jumping to conclusions.”

R. That’s what I’m saying. It’s just like myself, .. pick up, lot’s of times I’ll say things and people think, “Oh, this son of a bitch, I don’t like what he’s saying.” You can’t go by what people say. Language is a tremendously vain attempt to present what you feel, and can’t verbalize. And what you feel is more accurate. It’s like I told you: I come across as a hater of women, or somebody who downgrades women. That’s the farthest thing from the truth.

I remember one time Ben’s (?) wife jumped all over me. She thought I was anti- ... remember? ... she thought I was a ... but she didn’t know me, that’s all. She was just taking some verbal things. I say things for effect, too. I say a lot of things for effect. Meaning, if I can get through your particular shields that you have built up in your personality over a period of years with a few sharp words, that’s much better than letting you suffer for ten years. Just by attrition, things wearing away at you after a period of ten years.

Q. People guying into your shit.

dm2-07:03

But I came to the conclusion that things I learned, las I said, I married a girl that I wasn’t particularly, I couldn’t marry anybody that I’m in love with, because I don’t get in love. I knew that was impossible. Bid I did know her, her personality. I liked her personality, as a person, and so we got married. But I wondered what the hell I got married for, when I was married a week. And I wondered, you know, this baby’s going to cost me a lot of grief. I’m getting a baby thrown in (into the deal). But I realized I wa s going to pay for it.

But as time went on, I noticed that she was helpless. She was, her parents, her father, she took after her dad, and they were both helpless when it came to spending money and drinking beer. I couldn’t understand anybody having to be hooked on booze. So she, to this day she can drink three men under the counter. It doesn’t seem th faze her. She just likes booze, she likes dancing, and those are things I don’t like. So we’ve got something we don’t like. But loyalty, this counts for a hell of a lot. She was very loyal. And I saw it when I least expected it.

dm2-08:20

I remember one time I got into it, I was sick, as I said, I was sick half the time, I was feeling bad. James was jut a little kid about that high. Some guy jumped me in the sale barn. (near Moundsville) And I just handed her the kid. we were leaving, and I said, “Tale him up to the car, I’ll be up in a while.” Because I knew stuff was going to fly, so I hit him with a two-by-four. He was waving a to-by-four at me so I thought well, if I take that off him I’ll hit him in the head with it. So that would mean the two-by-four would be flying around, maybe hit the wife or the kid.

Instead of her taking the child and leaving, she climbed all over him. Not physically, started cursing him, calling him names. And it worried me. I says, “Hey, get him (the boy) out of here. I’ll handle this.” And she said, “No, you’re not able to fight.”

dm2-09:04

It makes you stop and think. You might get cursed out during the week, but when the chips are down she’s there. And then when my people got sick, my mother got sick, my wife had always talked about wanting to be a nurse. And I thought, what the hell does a woman need with a pr0fession? She’s got a man. I’m taking care of her, what does she need with this? But this was something in her system, that basically was her sole contribution. Something she was damn good at when she became a nurse. I could see after she became it, I did the right thing.

dm2-09:38

Not only that, but I was vert grateful for the fact th at she tried to be a nurse when my mother was dying. My mother was incontinent for six months, and I couldn’t do the job. I couldn’t take care of her, physically, because of the inhibitions and childhood-raising as a Catholic, I had never seen my mother naked. And I just couldn’t take care of her.

dm2-10:00

And it was either that or ship her to some institution, which I didn’t believe in doing. But I told my wife, “If you can’t take care of her I’ll quit my job and take care of her.” I’m supposed to. It’s my responsibility to take care of her, because she took care of me. So my wife says, “You go ahead and I’ll take care of her.” Well, she did. But you see, this ran a debt up for me, if you want to call it that. It created a friendship. I saw exactly where she stood, I saw exactly what she had to have, besides kids, out of a marriage.

In other words, I have a very selfish outlook: I’m entering into this marriaage for physical health reasons, because I had got to that age where I was either met married or something was going to happen. I had been celibate too long without any proper guidance on how to remain celibate correctly. And so I’m using her. And I’m using her for what I consider is an exalted reason, spirituality: sex. (laughs). Which is bullshit. On the other hand I’m depriving her of things she wants, in this short life of hers.

And I realized. So I’d think, I didn’t want her to waste money, but when she said she wanted to be a nurse, I took the money out of the bank, I stayed home and watched the kids for a year. I was sick anyhow, so I got sick a the proper time. I thought at first she poisoned me, but ... (laughs) She became a nurse. And she’s much happier. And not only that, but she could afford to buy her own booze. (laughs) So that helped.

Q. That ended up being very cost-effective ...

R. Oh yeah, that’s what you call a romantic end. (laughs) But in other words, what I am saying is, I had an incomplete view of a simple thing in life, that people are entitld to do something they like to do, in life. Which I didn’t, I’d had no concern, I was egocentric. I had no concerns of the female (perspective)...

dm2-12:20

(Jim Burns and other people arrive, greetings, chit chat)

Burns: How did you enjoy the South? (Florida trip)

R. Oh, it was a dud. I had six lectures scheduled, I canceled two and four were duds. Note: we only have information on two in early 1982, in Florida as he says. So this confirms the date of this meeting as 1982-Spring. (Also note, Harnish was in Tampa in 1983 but not in 1982. Galanternik helped w car purchase in Miami, late in 1984, bought 1984 Sentra. 1982-03-Orlando-Florida-missing-tape 1 of 4 1982-03-Tampa-Florida-missing-tape 2 of 4 < this page has emails re the trip (Art T.) 1982-0305-Man's-Spiritual-Problems-Unitarian-Church-Clearwater 3 of 4 1982-0310-Unitarian-Universalist-St-Petersburg-Florida 4 of 4

R. When you get into a big city it takes big advertizement. I gave a lecture in St. Petersburg, one in Tampa, one in Clearwater, one over in Orlando.6 And I had plenty of coverage in Orlando but nobody showed up. I had some people there but they were just ... they drifted in. It was alright.

dm2-13:10

Burns. You know, I had a question that’s been coming up time and time again. You know how it was a couple years back how everybody was going after this stuff and trying to find out what it was. Some was happening ...

R. They’re still going at it. Right after I got to Tampa, Baba Ram Das came down there. And this is a highly conservative area, they are older people, generally Christian-oriented people, retired. He made at least $1,000 worth of advertisements in the paper there, and he got 700 people in, and he was going to charge $5 apiece. So his net was about $3,000. He didn’t lose any money. So they are still going, you know. The advertisement, people will respond to advertisement.

dm2-13:53

R. See I take this as a personal thing (not business). I’ve seen too much of this happen. This is no coincidence. For instance in St Petersburg it was very little advertisement, just a little ad in the paper or something. And in Orlando we had a radio station broadcasting my thoughts every day. (check emails for radio station mention). (Which station? Does a tape exist?) We had a paper, an ad in the Orlando paper. We plastered it down with posters. And yet no one showed up. And we were giving the lecture, we were on a 1,700 name mailing list, a spiritual foundation, I don’t know what it was [somebody yells] from out of Chicago, Spiritual Realization? No, that’s Yogananda. ...

R. We’re gtting down to cheese sandwiches? How about the turkey legs? They’re all gone.

Burns: That’s what I came in for. (laughs)]

Burns: Well what do you think it is, then?

R. Well, it’s time for me to do something else, that’s what I interpret.

P. Or time you did something differently. Not something different, but differently.

R. Right. Well, we’ve been doing the Chautauquas.7 We’ve been putting the Chartauquas on, and it’s the same old stuff over and over. And we’re not learning by our mistakes, and we’re not getting any new initiative. And you’ve got to do both. You’ve got to come out wiith ... In other words, there’s a ... the public has a certain ear-language. Ok, if you can pick up that ear-language, whenever they he ar it, thy will see it in print they’ll respond to it, and you’ll have people come to you. I got more people coming to a class [room] lecture in Kent State or the University of Pittsburgh, than I did, the publicly advertised lecture in St Petersburg

Q. Look at the population ...

dm2-16:02

R. Right. Because when I was, in Pitt, the only advertisements would be in the campus billboard or just a local, maybe get a little write-up in the school newspaper.

Burns. I hope you guys don’t get sick of me smoking. (laughs)

R. It doesn’t bother me. That’s a Scotchman’s high, it doesn’t cost me a cent, smell your tobacco and go down and raise hell. I used to be around people who smoked dope and I would get higher than they do. (laughter)

[sandwiches, coffee]

Burns: I did eat a little bit his morning so I wasn’t very hungry when I came down.

[chit chat] R. We’ve got everybody on a fast today.

dm2-16:58

R. We had a little bigger meeting [TAT meeting Apr 6, 1982?] than what we generally expected some time in April when people get down here. And the rain and everything. She cooks this stuff up ahead of time. Prepares it frozen, and then just heats it up.

[chit chat]

dm2-17:38

Burns: Oh, I forgot to tell you, to put your fears at ease, I finally got on the welfare.

R. That’s wonderful. [chatter] That’s my formula for killing socialism. Get enough people on it and we’ll eventually destroy socialism.

Burns: (laughs) It’s eventually going to do it.

R. Get enough on, and we’ll eventually destroy socialism.

Burns: Absolutely. It’s going to wind up being a dictatorship for you, I don’t see how in hell it can miss.

R. I’ve only got one more project before I croak and that’s the balum? shovel.

B. (laughs) Have you figured out where to put it?

R. Oh yeah, Southeast Bank over there.

B. Oh, you mean that local?

R. Yeah, right over here.

B. ... hold up a bank and ...

R. Well, I might take a few of them with me. (laughter) That will save me from Chuck and Larry. (laughter)

[chuckle next to recorder might be SH]

B. Nothing like the Donner Pass.8 You really have to study that.

R. Well, you’ve got to say one thing for those people at the Donnor Pass. Cook the shoes first. They cooked the leather first but that didn’t work. Somebody got poisoned on shoe nails or something and died, so they cut him up.

B. The funny thing about it, they did survive as a result. They had a decision they had to make. I hope I never have to make it. It says something about the times, though.

dm2-19:21

R. I hope I’m not around when you have to make it. (hilarity)

B. Hey listen, me too. There are two people who have that idea. God I’m telling you. But isn’t it something, that you’d even be sitting around plying with that kind of idea. What a marvelous outlook! God knows what this craziness this is going to be in the South Atlantic.9 You wonder what in the hell they are going to wind up doing there. The British, it’s been so long since they won anything, they’re likely to go completely hog wild. They haven’t had anything to have their national pride jacked-up about since about 1910.

Q. Except Di and Prince Charles.

dm2-20:07

R. Oh, I’ll tell you these ... I was talking earlier today, about being ruled by Kallikaks.10 (laughter) Jimmie Carter. Jimmie Carter’s an idiot, a simpering idiot. This Prince Charlie is a retard. He’s an inbred retard. And we’ve got one in West Virginia that’s Governor. Rockefeller 11 is a retard, he’s seven feet tall, his glands got out of order, you know, his brain is strung all up from his penis to the top of his head, about four feet of brains. So that’s what is ruling the country. This Prince Charlie, they put him up as some kind of a hero. He doesn’t even have a head. He puts his cap on a callous on his neck.

dm2-20:55

PS. Well they love Diana.

R. Oh my God, she’s just as bad. They get to ...

PS. They want to make her the queen.

R. She appared sneaking, is all her photographs, sneaking, as if they caught her playing with herself.

PS. She always has the same smile on her face.

R. Smile? I thought it was pain.12 (laughs) You know, what made me conscious, I’m great with the study of animals, the psychology of animals, and an opossum smiles. So does an undertaker. They are both undertakers. Both of them are undertakers. So I’ve always been conscious of smiles.

I went down to pick up a guy’s body in DC the other day, and went in to this Bethesda Hospital, and I had to talk to an aid? a navy? officer first. This guy smiled at me. And I stood there, I was sitting there 15 minutes watching this guy, and carrying on the conversation so he would keep on so I could study him. Because why did he smile? It was a different type of smile.

dm2-22:03

It was a critical, cynical thing, and I .. he looked at me and my beard was trimmed perfectly, you know, so he thought, “Here’s a guy who just got out of the woods of West Virginia he’s down here, we’ll see what we can get him for. (laughs) See what we can pick out of his pockets. Yeah, they had me, “Well, we had already written out a check,” and they canceled the check.

dm2-22:35

They didn’t get to look at the will until I went in there to signed the thing for an autopsy. Here the guy had written that he wanted to be cremated and/or conveyed to the nearest Naval facility. So I just walked out. They wouldn’t let me have the will. They let me read it but they wouldn’t let me have it. It? isn’t? proper? because I wouldn’t? be? the executor. Take charge of it. No death certificate. They let him lay there four days and no death certificate.

dm2-23:02

So when I got back, of course Dave Gold had written a letter to the Admiral in charge, and the Secretary of the Navy, and Senator Byrd, to tell them what a bastard of an assistant they’ve got down there. So this guy calls me, and he says, “Well, what did I do to you?” I said, “Nothing. Maybe you thought you were doing your duty, but I didn’t trust you. You smiled at me in the wrong way I knew what you were up to.” (laughs) I said, “I sat ther 15 minutes trying to figure you out, and I can’t determine that you’re an honest man. That’s what I go by, not what you say, what I pick up intuitively, and I can’t pick up anything on you. Except I got lied to over the phone. And once I knew I was lied to, then I wonder what you’re smiling about.” Is it the smile of victory or a smile of compassion, see?

dm2-24:14

B. I almost always ... polite ... inaudible

R. Do you ever see George Blazer? (spelling used by Art T. in TAT article)

B. I called him but nobody answered.

R. How is his wife?

B. Well, yeah ... probably settled in ...

R. That’s gotten damn easy now. warm it up a little bit ... inaudible. laughter, chit chat ...

R. We were just talking about George, about George’s wife, that’s what I was telling you. She came down one time and was sitting out here with a group that came here. They didn’t have a house, just occupied a trailer out there. The house was rented.

dm2=30:45 R. A couple girls, Frank Mascara was there and his wife, me, a little girl from up in Ohio was staying here in the school bus, and there were a half a dozen guys. She looks at Jean and she says, “What are you wasting time with these people for?” So I wonder, “What the hell is she talking about?” George was telling us, “Geez, you really got it made.” That’s the way George is. He said, “I really envy you people. You’re doing what you want to do.” And she is saying, “What are you putting up with this stuff for? What’s going on here?” You know, using an outside toilet.

So I said to her, “Well, what have you done for the world?”

“I’m a successful executive. My husband works for me.”

So I said, “Yeah? Who do you consider a successful person? What’s a person supposed to go for? What is a girl supposed to go for?”

She says, “I’ve got a (friend?) she’s 40 years of age, and she is in charge of such and such.”

I say, “Has she got any kids?” She said, “No ...” I said, “Then she’s useless.”

Q. She probably didn’t like that one bit.

R. Oh I know. I said it so she wouldn’t like it. I said, “She’s useless ...”

B. If somebody’s going to be on your case a lot easier if you give them something to really sour the workplace?? (laughter) That’s no bullshit. Because I’ll tell you what it does: You have now very successfully put a never-changing attitude about you in that person’s mind, and you always know what they think.” (laughter)

dm2-27:37

B. I’m very serious. When I find out that somebody’s on my case, and I don’t like it, I come up with something outrageous to talk about. They never forget it.

R. They remember it, but it’s always ten years too late. That’s the trouble.

dm2-28:00

R. But this is true about the favorable things. I used to loaf with some guys, before I was married, I was about 25 years of age, one of them was Paul Weiss' wife, to-be wife. And these were guys who eventually got to work for me in the contracting business. He was 15 years old, some of them were 15-16 years old. They didn’t have any place to loaf so they came out here to loaf on the farm.

And I used to say, I popped off a bit, I preached a lot, how to live, keep your nose clean, etc. And they went their merry way. (Burns laughs) Got their nose dirty. But they came back ten years later, every one of them came back to me ten-twelve years later, “I know what you were talking about.” And it dawned on me that I was wasting my time. I didn’t realize I was wasting my time. But I wasn’t wasting [noise] effective dividends twelve years later.

dm2-29:00

B. I’ve got to find the trash can. Is that it?

R. But I realized that you can be economical with your words, if you’re only saying the right things to the right people. But when you’re talking to a group this is very difficult. Because I’ve got, like there are ten people standing here, and I can say something that will help somebody tremendously, perhaps. It will ring a bell. And it rings the opposite bell in another party, standing right in front of them. (next to them)

B. Right. Very much so.

R. So one person’s going to say, “Oh, yeah, wow.” And the other guy is going to want to hate you. (inaudible) This is trouble with public lectures, that I have found. When you give a public lecture, I was telling the guys in here, you almost have to tell stories. Because you get dowm, you get pedantic or didactic or whatever you want to call it, and people don’t like to be told. They don’t like to be taught.

PS. They don’t like to be challenged. Their ... you have to seduce them, as you put it.

R. Right, right.

R. That’s what my mother did to my father. You got a piece when you went to church. Kept the Catholic Church going. ??

B. I’ve got a better word for it. It sounds? like? rape?

R. It really is when you think about it.

(Break in tape)

dm2 ends at 30:47

File dm3

dm3-0:00 Total time 30:10

... dictatorship. (laughter)

Q. What was that poem you wrote at the beginning of Psychology of the Observer?

[designer put a mechanism in the robot]

R. About the robot?

Q. Yeah. I thought that was descriptive of being being a ??

R. Yeah. We cannot begin, you’re dealing with a mathematical problem in which the factors are infinite. The human mind is not going to take care of that infinite number of factors. And that’s the reason you have to have a direct-mind, to do it with lightening speed. And come to the right answer.

G. There must be levels of development beyond anything we can peceive. There must be prople who are developed spiritually, like Christ, that wouldn’t even even talk to ordinary people. To get in and beyond these other dimensions, that nobody can understand that they were at that level.

BC. That’s not really saying anything. You’re saying that there must be something beyond something we don’t know.

G. Like Yogananda or some of these yogis. That left their bodies, and seem like they were highly evolved. ... goes on a rant. it just goes on and on.

R. It gets tiresome before you start. (laughter)

G. It’s too far to go, so you

R. So get a bottle of whiskey. And drink to it.

dm3-02:16

FM. You were talking about the higher mind, and the idea of healing people, people trying to get psychiatric help, they can’t really be helped, because, the way I see it, the psychiatrist or psychologist doesn’t recognize the possibility of a higher mind or another observation state, they’re treating something, that a person, doesn’t ?? as you said, there’s no such thing as mental illness ...

R. They’re treating them for reflexive ability, that’s all.

FM. ... rather than getting behind it.

R. Reflexes. They can’t get beyond the reflexes. Because that’s the limits of their, they’ve made a declaration. They have almost collectively made a declaration, that's ?? to practice psychiatry in the hospitals today has to agree with that declaration. That is a physical brain that is healable. But this physical mind is healable with physical drugs. That’s it. And I say that isn’t. That will only, what do you call it, louse up the healing. You’re throwing more states of mind. Each drug has its own state of mind.

DS. Seebach? All it does, it harnesses the symptoms that are unbecoming ...

R. Sure. The guy’s up so you hit him with a drug that knocks him down. But what happened in the meantime? How did you get him, what effect did that have on his long-range consciousness.

DS. As long as he’s quiet nobody gives a shit.

R. Right. Get him off the streets and then if you’re lucky, stimulate him a little bit and get him back to paying taxes.

DS. You’d have probably had something similar to that [in Seattle] if you weren’t in an isolated condition.

R. Yeah ... trouble ... I probably would have ...

DS. If you had fallen over in the middle of a mall or something and they had carted you off and stuck you with ...

R. Yeah, yeah. I was just lucky I was in my room.

R. Whar are you hunting there? Hungry?

SH? No, I just saw that steam over there.

R. Somebody’s probably concentrating on the ...

dm3-04:18

SH?. What about this “one mind” that Huang Po talks about? Is that the same as direct-mind?

R. No, no. It’s basically, it depends on -- you have to ask Huang Po -- there are two possibilities: One of them is being one with the Absolute. But I think he’s talking about, cutting out, being one with your inner Self. No egos. No egos. See, this is the thing that always confused me about Gurdjieff. Gurdjieff talked about the cohesion of all these egos. All these “I’s”. To form a more dynamic and powerful what? Animal? You know. I wonder sometime about -- he was a good psychologist -- but I wondered about his definition of the “I’s”. To be One, you have to be minus everything. Not to unify all those personalities and egos. You have to subtract everything but the Observer.

George. Kind of beyond the personality though. It’s best described as what it is not.

dm4-05:22

R. Right. Well, we do that anyhow. The dictionary is composed of definitions that describe a thing by what it is not. It can never tell you what it is.

George: Even when you go within, to a state beyond the body and the mind, there’s still, going very deep within there’s a consciousness of awareness.

R. Oh sure.

George: But there are also states beyond even that.

dm3-05:52

R. The reason that you have hope is that certain people have been pronounced dead, and were brought back, and they had a memory of things that happened while they were supposedly dead. And you also have people who were totally out, technically unconscious, and they babbled. And they gave information when they babbled that even they didn’t remember. Which was accurate. So that, it’s evident that the body, the physical mind, carries stuff ...

G. I would think that if a person did travel this road, that the only thing he could do was foul his head, and be aware of everything.

R. Well ... a bardo, it don’t matter what you do ...

G. Well, you get beyond karma, beyond cause and effect. It doesn’t matter what you do or you don’t do, if you do it.

R. I’ll tell you something, a person can take, if you want to live in a , you can live an absolutely, have permanent peace of mind, if you refuse to b troubled. Refuse to be concerned with what happens.

G. But you got to come out into the world.

R. Yeah, but you can reject the world, and at the same time live in it. By that I mean you can let it go by, and it will go by. ?? and it won’t bother you. But the trouble is that something has hooks into everybody ?? whether it’s strong enough.

G. There’s always a hangup, something that’s got you, from way back there.

R. Well, like I said, even if you have an experience -- you can die, and the smart thing, you assume, would be to die, but if you set hooks in yourself, again, you’ll come back. You’ll live, and it takes a hook to keep you alive. You have to have a dedication to somebody, in order to stay alive.

G. Well, I think at that level there are certain things, like compassion and so forth, where you have...

R. Well, those are hooks. Compassion is a hook. It’s something we accept.

G. I don’t mean just ignorant gift? giving? I mean compassion.

dm3-8:08

R. A? worm? ieating? is? inside? ? of compassion.

G. Well, that was ...

R. See, we’re just worms. worms It’s amazing. There are a lot of nice things. How to make shirts and pants.

G. Well, I don’t know.

Q. I got a kick out of my grandfather, when he was about 95. He told me, “Don’t take anything seriously.” I thought that’s good for him to say, he’s 95. (laughter)

R. Well he must have been a smart man, to say that at 95.

Q. He was very smart, and I could see the ...

G. A guy at 65, and he had gotten over the bitches. I mean the female, the female. (laughter)

R. ?? that hammer, shall we (hilarity)

PS. I’m watching you.

G. I didn’t mean anything.

PS. That’s better. (banter, laughter)

dm3-09:26

G. I’m trying to be a TAT without being tacttul?

B. That’s the male ego.

G. Well, she’s been giving me hell lately. I’ve been kinda laying around lazy, not working, it’s like action in non-action.

Q. You’re supposed to produce.

(more banter)

G. We have a lot of duality here. That’s the male/female duality.

dm3-10:40

PS. Sometimes it makes me take a much more women’s lib position than I actually have.

(banter)

G. Well, when you’re out with a bunch of men ... the men are wiser ...

dm3-11:32

PS. Whenever a woman says to me, “I’m a feminist,” then I say to her, “Then you’re a separatist.”

R. That ?? yeah. The worst thing you can sy about a person is that they’re sexually-oriented.

G. It will take me a few more lifetimes to get beyond male/female.

(banter)

R. You asked for it George. (laughter)

d3-12:20

SH. So are we going to finish reading these definitions? 13

R. Well, what do you think? Do you ink it’s ?? more? organized? (laughter)

R. This here is Steve’s:

S/h; ahhh,

R. That’s the menu (laughter)

SH: Ok: Direct-mind is a higher element of being which is beyond the ordinary mind .. a person should know the ordinary mind and see its limitations, and attempt to get beyond it. While beyond thought, direct-mind experiences can occur as a result of intense thought. And direct-mind science should include the study of thought and other ?? events such as emotions which can initiate? direct-mind experiences. The study of it should have as its center, however, persons who are aware of direct-mind, and the spiritual ?? and can communicate and transmit to individuals of like orientation.

dm3-13:51

R. You know, one thing I wanted to mention, ?? change of my mind ? David. You’re going to be assailed with a demand of definition of terms. And then, as you define it you’re going to be assailed with ?? ?? See what I mean? In other words, “How do you know? ... How can ...” And I think that the definitions given seem to quote, rather than emanate from ...

Q. Personal? experience?

R. Right, right. I sense the quoting of someone else. In other words, if somebody says to you, “How do you know about direct-mind?” What does a guy say?  ?? Let’s suppose Richard Rose never existed kind of thing. See what I mean. And this stuff, hell, this stuff is here because I’m here. There are many thousands of incidents of direct-mind. And this is what we have to point to. Not to any particular book. See? Not to any particular book. Of course, you’re going to his a definition. I say it’s alright to say, pick up Van der Leeuw’s Conquest of Illusion.14 And pick up Sadony’s book.15 Pick up maybe The Albigen Papers or The Psychology of the Observer. There are other books, also, that ??

But the thing is, if somebody comes along and says, “Hey, what do you mean?” Here’s a guy getting up and he’s going to talk about direct-mind -- what do you mean by direct-mind? See? And he says, “That’s an offshoot of the manifested mind or the unmanifested mind.” And I say, “Hey, experience this for yourself.” So we more or less remove that whole thing, until it is self-experienced.

dm3-15:54

You don’t dare quote it. You’ve either experienced it or it’s pretty much been laid down in mathematical fashion, as two plus two equals four. See? Ok. So what happens? We say, “What are we after?” We’re after the fact that somebody moved some salt and pepper shakers and we want to know why. We’re after the fact that somebody healed somebody, and we want to know why. And are there common denominators behind all these things? And are we taking, is the human race taking te proper approach to these things? Is there a mind. You have to, all of this stuff has to have very carefully present [wording} a tremendous abount of phenomena with (that has) no explanation possible except that there is another dimension, by which you look at this stuff. Do you understand what I’m saying?

dm3=16:52

R. In other words, it has to come out from a very basic beginning. “Hay, my grandmother,” somebody can say, “My grandmother was able to remove warts. How did she remove warts?” I’m not saying my grandmother. Somebody’s grandmother. Or the guy across the street did this, (such and such). What? Maybe he only did it once or twice in his life. But what happened? How did he do this? Ok, we get out the Conquest of Illusion, the Seaforth Seer.16 These historic events. Where people were able to do strange things.

And we go from there. We start to pile this up. You just can’t say that, “this mind is an inferior mind.” You can, but then you’re going to have to belabor your audience with things like Conquest of Illusion. You;re going to have to take the Conquest of Illusion and analyze it, and discuss it, and whether it can be believable. Whether it’s worth believing or not.

dm3-17:55

R. And Ouspensky’s works, perhaps. And Paul Brunton’s book on The Wisdom of the Overself.17 These things all lead? ... and Mary Baker Eddy.18 These things can be brought in. What happens here? If something results from ... there must have been something that results from Chistian Science practitioners, or the thing would be dead by now. If it were nothing but writing, the whole movement would be dead. So something happens.

dm3-18:28

And then you get into these other things, where people, in a group, like group work. Down, we were going to stop at Ephrata the other day, the weather got bad coming up bad coming up. The footprints in the ceiling, where somebody had walked upside down, with flaming feet, supposedly, in a chapel, this old Rosicrucian chapel. Christ, somebody could have done, it would have taken a lot or artwork to do it. You could say it’s all (baloey) But nobody is making any money off it. The whole colony is dead. This is just something, the ruins of an old Rosicrucian colony there at Ephrata, Pennsylvania.19 20 21

dm3-19:05

But there’s all sorts of stuff that I believe that you could go at this stuff. (wording) The common sense of the man in the steel mill or the coal mine or the farm -- you can talk to him. And this is what you have to do. You have to talk to him on his basis. On his basis. There’s a book in there, I’ve got a book, the Smith boy from Columbus sent it. It was The Hexenmeister,22 is the name of it. This ?? the hexenmeister lived down there in Kanawha Valley, near Charleston. And he told of a whole valley of people there that were psychic, you know, that were capable of doing magical things. Some did one thing, some did another.

dm3-19:47

And of course I was amazed, because we all know where Charleston is, I’ve been down there myself, my brother worked down there, and I never herad any rumors or anything coming out of any particular valley, but this guy is, I think he’s still living. ?? Probably about my age, because I think the way he talked about high school and the war. But it goes back to ... yeah

Bill Weimer. Do you mean this place exists, or is it fiction book you were talking about?

R. No, he Hexenmeister is not a fiction book. Everything in it is facts.

BW. Do you want to check him ou?

R. No, I wouldn’t. He’s over in Ohio. He’s over around your area.

BW. Oh yeah? What’s his name?

R. I don’t know, I’d have to get the book.

Q. We’ll check it out.

R. Well, I just wonder if you could. Because when I run into it. I don’t know if it’s here. I’ll go look. I think it may be in the cupboard over there. By that I mean, I don’t doubt that the valley is still there, to check it out. The reason I say that is because he had a, one of the things that he told, was some guy being in love with him. And he said he was a nice guy but I don’t want to get that close to him, something like that.23 24 They went to high school together. He said the guy was a big, masculine he-man type and he on the other hand was a more studious, he wasn’t muscular, and that. The guy was attracted to him, and so he took off and left that part of the country, went over to Akron and raised a family. Akron or Canton.

dm3-21:33

But what I mean is, if you pick up those names, whether those are the true names or not, you’d have to contact him, to find out if they are.

BC. What kind of powers did they have in this?

R. Nothing. Nothing really sensational. But they the, certain people had the ability to cause things to happen, and they saw entities ...

Q. Was it a group or a family?

R. No, it was some people here and there in this valley, this particular valley. I got, from my understanding, it was something like, well, around here it would be like Jim’s Run in McMechen; the valley is maybe two or three miles long, this one valley, maybe five miles long or something.

They were ?? people, there were residences, but ther weren’t too many people. And he was kind of surprised when he gt outside of there and saw that everybody wasn’t that way. That was his surprise. He thought everyone was that way.

dm3-22:30

Now this is pure? along? as we said before, with civilization, the electricity and hat sort of thing, that you dont have, you’re not close to nature and a lot of that stuff you don’t see. But before had electric lights the phenomena were more, seems as thought, not only that but the mind could draw more. You had more time. They had many hours that they couldn’t work outside in the winter time, so they had to sit insude and read. Or sit there and think. That’s my conjecture anyhow about what caused it. But they were closer to nature. Closer to the forces of nature.

dm3-23:11

BW. Is that why the ancients seemed so much ... they had ...

R. Yeah, I think, what we’ve done, we have created, like the ?? said to create things to distract us. You know, you want to go up to Pittsburgh? Ok, you’ve got a car now, you used to have a horse and buggy. That horse and buggy was no detriment. You could still, just like in a car, read a book while you went. Of course they didn’t go that fast. It was the trail where you could meditate. That might be another chance a guy got to meditate, on the road to Pittsburgh with a horse. He took him all day.

dw3-23:40

DS. Seems like in the past, though, people were always working, just to survive. Like if you had a horse and? a? wagon? you had to have some way of feeding the horse, and taking care of the animal, and it’s almost his whole life would be taken up doing the mundane things that .. today it’s not any better because if you don’t work all the time to make money, to put food on your table and pay taxes that they want from you. I think the biggest drain on people’s awareness is all this divergence: television, sports ...

R. That’s what I’m saying. You’ve got a car to take you to Pittsburgh, but that car’s going to cost you a thousand dollars a year in insurance and certain things that cot like hell. Depreciation and insurance alone are maye over a thousand bucks. And if you don’t trade it in every four years, you’ll be laying underneath it a month every year repairing it, so you can make one trip to Pittsburgh.

George. ust working your life away ...

R. What I’m talking aout is personal experience. I can remember, when we lived right down where we lived in Benwood (wording) we used to have visitors from out here in the country. They’d come in, they had an old Model-T Ford they’d park it across the street, and they’d spend, we’d put them all up for the night, you know. Once a year the family would come in. That was the Crawfields. But they had time to do that. There was no dra?? You had a hard time passing the time. You didn’t have any, the woman in the house generally had a piano. My mother used to play the piano, that was part of the deal. She had her repertoire, which was about three pieces, besides Little Brown Jug. They liked to hear the piano. But what I’m saying, those people, who plowed the field ith horses, hand-sewed stuff, and still had more time. They still had more time to do things.

dm3-26:00

Q. That’s true the world over.

R. Yes.

Q. I was just reading this book about this Japanese guy, that life in modern Japan id even more hectic than it is in most of our lives. He says that in a small village that he went back to, from working in a big city, he says he went down to the local Buddhist temple and he found homes like 200 years old. These people, these so-called semi-literate farmers had time to sit around in the winter time and compose haiku. They thought enough of it to ...

R. Yeah. Korea was the same way. Korea had a tremendous inclination toward poetry. And everybody, if a person were to write poetry, he was respected in the community. And a tremendous bale of this stuff came ot of Korea. Lin Yutang talks about it.

Q. For rabbit hunting, he says, “Whoever hears of a modern Japanese farmer doing rabbit hunting?” That’s a traditional country pursuit. Between the moons that correspond to our Christmas, and like the oriental new year, that whole month period is devoted to rabbit hunting, and other kinds of fishing pursuits.

dm3-27:25

R. Yeah, I could see the reflections of it. Because they kept this brain, this house here, when we moved here, had a clock in it run by a string. A spring clock. And they didn’t have to go in and pay, there was a certain amount of money for this, they made one out of spring. They put weights on it. The little gears are hand-whittled. I think it would be worth a fortune today. I chucked it out, I wanted a case to put something in.

I think that your, it used to be you had a desert too. The old men who wanted to do some thinking went out into the desert, and would stay there, because there was a desert to go to. Today there’s no place to go to. It’s against the law. It’s against the law to sit too long in a park, you’d better get the hell out by ten o’clock. Whether you’re an acetic or not you’d better leave the park by ten o’clock. They talk about doing so much for the public but you’re not allowed to use it.

G. The old myths are being challenged. Including the old-time religion. Back then more people believed in the traditional religion. It seems now a lot of that stuff is being challenged. Maybe there’s some value ...

R. I think they were challenged then ...

G. ?? weren’t questions of the church ...

R. Well, you’re talking about your family and my family. But the other people did. Martin Luther did. The guy who wrote The Hexenmeister said, you know, they were all church people but they knew better.

G. Well, that’s what I always thought. Back in th old days ? things were more quiet ...

R. Well, you had your Martin Luther. A lot o people said, “Hey, this is baloney.”

G. Today you have all these writings that we have. You didn’t have his stuff back then.

R. Ahhh, I don’t know. There was a lot of stuff. Nothing was written before 1500 because they didn’t have printing presses.25

Q. You don’t think it ran ?? do you not?

dm3-29:36

R: What I think, George, is that any effort you make to try to escape will lead to your own manufacturing of greater obstacles and chains. That’s what I think is happening, and will happen.

G. Greater obstacles.

R. What we’re trying to do is we’re trying to escape ?? five? times? with technology. We’re going to have books, computers, instantaneous information out of computers, instantaneous information from all over the world by television ...

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R. ... yet we are getting more hung up.

G. ore materialistic.

R. No. We’re not even good animals now. The average American is going own the tubes.Somebody said that one out seven people in this counry have herpes.

Q. Supposedly it’s one in five of adults that have it.

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R. ... people listen to that, like Bob Martin. I thought Bob Martin would drive me crazy up in Pittsburgh. He’s talking about nonsense, about, little charming stories about, I didn’t think they were charming, about in his youth. He hadn't got to the point. He hadn’t gotten to the real rotten point. He was fairly un-rotten when he was 12 years old. Then he got up to about 19, when he got a little bit beyond that, then they had trouble. He never stopped. ??

But this is the, if you’re doing public speaking, if you’re going to hold them, you’ve got to hold them, and then, you’re dealing with people who very seldom face themselves. The majority of people in front of you very seldom face themselves. And he said you can only drop a little, a little contract? with these things. Then the next time you come back, he’ll come to hear you again. Then you can know a litttle car-tracter? But you can’t give any breakthrough, or revelations.

dm5-1:05

But I think you can, you can if the thing is put together solidly, it’s a combination of, I watched this guy on TV, his presentation down there in Texas, it was in Dallas, I imagine. But he was an emotional speaker. This somehow goes over, Of course, I don’t want anybody to get into that. Because ?? ?? themself? Laughs. But he was emphatic, that was all.

dm5-

You know, it’s a funny thing, you can go into church, everyone of us here has gone into church, a holy-roller church. You know what they do? They get up and they ... My father in law ?? my father in law was illiterate, he had a vocabulary of about 50 words. But he could use these 50 words backwards and forwards and upside down. And interspiced with hallelujah. And he’d jump, he’d jump over the rostrum, feet up in the air, he was about 250 pounds, he'd go straight up in the air, throw his arms around. He was very emphatic. But he would throw out occasionally a Bible verse. He’d throw it out. It had a little tie-in was almost intuitional, he’d throw these out. But it would tie in to what he was saying.

dm5-

But he would repeat himself maybe ten times. Repeat the same phrase ten times shouting it and jumping around. But the thing was, he held the attention with that shenanigan. He was holding the attention of these people. And then the intuitional thing, when it came through, it hit them in the head. “Well, maybe, maybe, that’s sounds reasonable.” Because you're practically becoming involved in it. state of mind. See what I mean? Your state of mind is on the verge of his. And you go away thinking, “Well this guy, he must be on the level, he seems to be sincere.” He is sincere.

dm5-03:08

But they don’t say anything. This is what they say in that instance: it's all what they project by virtue of a great, you might say hypnotic flurry, waving the arms, jumping up and down and saying emotional things about Jesus, and terrible things about the people in front of him, if they don't hurry up and ? and get saved?

dm5-03-32

But I think it might be the most effective thing is there's a lot of literature. You guys are not picking it up. This is the thing. There is a lot of literature on what we're talking about. And I am really pleased with some of there -- I never thought that chemistry would get as far into brain chemistry as iot has. A lot of this stuff is validating the intuitions of thousands of years.

Thousands of years of people that have lived a certain way, like Pythagoras, Christ H1 but there were philosophers side? This is validating their lifestyle. And their power to produce miracles. The power to do certain things.. But you see it is the living? limited? here is a catch too. It's limited. You know, you get a healer: he projects all this energy in the direction of healing. That’s all it’s good for.

I don’t think that this is absolutely necessary. Of course I think one thing is more important than the other. Then there's another person who projects it in the mind of transmission, only. And another one may do it in the form of prophesies. He may just sit and look into the space-time continuum and give you readings. But again I don’t quite see the need for the specialty. I think the specialty is an obsession, if too much. Too much of he specialty is an obsession.

dm5-04:58 But if your mind should function in any direction, in anything you are doing. In other words, when you read a book you should be able to see the relevance? ripples? of the writer. You should be able to see the author.

dm5-05:09

And Gurdjieff talked one time about going down into the desert, they took a bunch down into the ruins in Arabia or some place. And they would walk among these old statutes and try to visualize what happened there.26 The type of people who lived there and what they were doing, that sort of thing. And of course whoever was their teacher was trying to call forth their intuition. Because with that proper intuition they’d have a direct-mind view of what was going on.

dm5-05:40

SH?. Do you think they were trying to tie into the holographic nature of the mind by taking a piece of the culture With one (fragment) thy could reproduce the whole picture of the culture.

R. Well that’s psychology. Psychology does that. I’ve seen people do this, where the hell was it at? In Minerva, Ohio. It’s on the road to Pittsburgh somewhere. It's between Canton and Pittsburgh. I worked in a roadhouse when I was ?? It was a tavern, steakhouse, certain expensive meals there, expensive drinks 27 And there was an old cook, back in the back, nobody ever saw him, he was working on the grill all the time. He’d get a break and go out and talk to me. And he told me he had the ability to see things. I said, "That's amazing," I wanted to see more of it, see. And he said, “Well, I’m giving you a demonstration. I have to have something that you've had for a while, to focus my mind on it," just like he was talking about, focusing on point and then expanding from that point.

dm5-06:52

So I gave him a ball-point pen. It was back in the days of the ball-point pen first came out. And the pen cost me fifteen dollars. On the ?? gold-plated, that was the ?? It would cost fifteen bucks ad it was a novelty, and I had was single at he time and I bought it. They didn’t write very well, it didn't write very long and it would stop. And that was Ito get a refill for it so, ??

But anyhow,he took this and he said to me, he said, “First of all, you’re not the first guy who has owned this pen.” Hell, he couldn’t prove this one way or the other. Then he said, “You live on a farm, you come from a farm, I see a farm.” And he said, “You come around a semi-circular road to get to it." He was talking about [the old farm}, I didn't have this place until I was over here. And he said, “You come to your cabin," he says, "you have to step up on a sandstone, a single step to get into the door.” Nobody would have guessed that. He described that cabin to perfection.

dm4-07:52

And that was all he did. I mean there was no weegeedimink?? or prophecies like that. But he told me everything about [it], and He said, “You’ve got troubles. You’ve got physical troubles right now." And he said ... This was when I came back from Seattle. And I was curious. I was still debating with myself, like Jim Voelker, what caused this experience to happen? Was it the diet I had, was it the yoga exercises, was it the vitamins I was taking? I was taking vitamins [noise] C or ?? And he hold me. He told me what, “You’re debating whether you're taking your diet or pills,” you know. And he told me, I don’t remember what he told me the cause of it was.

dm5-08:50

So this guy who was just an ordinary man with no education? He had served in World War I He had got his leg shot out from under him. He said there wasn’t enough bone in his shin to hold him up. And he said that the doctor told him he wouldn't walk on his legs,there wasn’t enough bone and it would break if he walked on it. And he said he walked in braces for a while, then he made up his mind, he was still a young man, he made up his mind he was going to walk without them and he did. This was just, he just, you know, determination. And he was still crippled. You could tell ha had trouble getting around. He needed help with braces, crutches.

dm5-09:38

Frank. Still, one of your, when we’re discussing direct-mind abilities, whether how much of it plays in the individual person, their lifestyle, which I know has a part, because that's a part of the Tao? which you can change yourself, and then some people maybe like Joseph Sadony 28 or other people have this knack, or have this mind ability, they can see things from a very young age. You read about people that too. You think they didn’t really develop it, it was almost like they had it. I don’t really know the factors.

R. That’s true. I’ve always been rather reluctant to talk about it in the group, because I don’t see the same phenomenon among you people compared to when I was young. So I don’t know how much of it is parental, lifestyle, monastic lifestyle, or inheritance, I don’t know. But I do know that when I was a kid I could see, I’ve always been, not lately I haven't been, but I could on occasion, but I could see death. I could see death

And it was very difficult. And sometimes I'd smell flowers when they'd die. I'd smell a big, driving past their house and smell it and and stop, stop the car, and find out which house it was, if I knew people in that area. And invariable, it would invariably result, it would be followed by death.

dm5-11:07

Frank: Is that when you were very young?

R. Yes. When I went away to be a priest I was 12 years of age. My mother took me up there to be a priest,29 there in Wheeling, so we'd gone to pastor’s house. And this guy was setting up the papers for me, the paperwork. And I kept watching him, and I thought, “Oh boy, this guy’s dead.” When I came home an I told my mother, “Father Philips is going to die.” And she says, “Shut up.” She thought I was being disrespectful.

noise

Q. Did she remember?

R. I don’t even know. I just, I went away to the seminary just a few days after and never discussed it with her.

But I’ve seen things here (on the farm), I don't know about other people, I had my mother still in the house one time when I went in, and I knew. I didn’t know what was going on and that had me puzzled. It turned out later to be a brother who was dead. He was in the room with her. I could hear this electronic noise, beat, very irritating. And there was a little hall over there in front of the house, and when I stepped over the threshold I could hear it. When I stepped back out of the room I couldn’t hear it. And of course she was out of her head. I was going to take her in to the doctors.

dm5-12:34

I wanted to leave her alone so she could dress. She was in a nightgown, so I had to walk out so she would have privacy to put the dress on. But this noise got so irritating. Then when I realized it, it was only in her room. It wasn’t even in my head, because outside in the other room it didn’t exist. And I knew something was after her. Or action. Urgency ? or something. Very urgent.

So just I ran in and picked up my car that was parked out at the gate and I ran out and I set her in the front seat with nothing on but a nightgown, and grabbed all her underwear and threw it in a box and a suitcase and put it in the back seat and took off. And she lived, and I had to put her in a hospital and stuff. It was an urgent stroke.

dm5-13:19

And about six months later I waited until she was pretty coherent, and I said to her, “Do you remember what happened when I brought you in from the farm?” And she said, “Oh, yes, I remember. I thought you'd bring me through he trees, I couldn’t see a road." That's why she was laying with her head back, looking out the window, I had her head laid back on the seat, semiconscious.

And she says, “When you got me here I thought I was in the hospital." I said, "I wasn't talking about that so much," I said, "but do you remember anything that happened at the farm house?"

And she says, “Oh, yes, I knew I was in trouble, but James was there.” James had been killed in the war. She said, “He was as real as you are.” We were both there. She said, "He had been there for several days."?? actually. He had been there for several days at her bedside, and telling her, "You'll be alright. You'll be taken care of."

dm5-14:13

That was the time also I had told my wife, I said to my wife, "My mother's in trouble." And we had, before the dial phones, I just picked it up, you had to dial Limestone here, then they cranked one in on a hand crank from here, from this house here, had a hand crank deal. Magneto.30 So they'd have to crank that up to talk with her. And I picked up my phone and heard her talking! I did't contact either operator. And I heard her call my number, it was 625-J at that time. And I just shouted over the phone, "I'll be right out."

Well I came out, and that phone call was never registered on her, Even flips? grabs a call that she was trying to make evidently. And that was never registered on her, in other words, no record of her ever making that call.

But theoretically, what happened was hat she got through this one operator and they hadn't, they didn't, they were getting ready to ring mine, but my phone didn't ring.

Q. You just picked t up.

R I just picked it up at the exact moment they were plugging in, or getting ready to ring my line. I don't know how it happened. That's how I came to come out. When I came out I found use? the phone because the phone was hanging by the rope. The receiver looked like a rope, a real thin wire up the side of a rope.

dm5-15:38

But get those, I've got those things too. My daughter was in Phoenix, which is two thousand plus miles away. And I knew she was very ill. It was in the daytime. I just went over and picked up the phone and I called my wife, my ex-wife, and I said, "What's wrong?" I didn't ?? see something's wrong out there. And she said, "Nothing. What are you talking about?" And I said, "Hey, is Ruth okay?" She was having a baby. So she says, "Yeah." So I said, "Well, I was kind of concerned, it must be something superstitious or something." So I hung up.

Next day I got a phone call from her, she said, "Well, she pulled through." She was dying. They gave her up. They said if she didn't produce the baby her heart would fail. It's too late for her, she's too weak for an operation, a Cesarean, and it was just a matter of her being able to get rid of (deliver) the baby, because it's all up to ?? And she finally did it, before her heart slowed down too much.

dm5-16:40

Q. What was your mother's reaction to the fact that she saw James there?

R. Well, the funny thing was that she, you know ...

Q. Did she know he was dead?

R. Oh, that was years after he died. Years afterwards. Many years after he died. But no, I, she took it, she knew. She thought that beyond a shadow of a doubt that when she died she would meet all her relatives. It wasn't surprising to her.

dm5-17:09

Frank. Yeah, Sadony [as a child] saw his father's death, and his family had the same reaction. They tried him quiet about it. He says in his book. They told him not to, just be quiet about it.

Q. Like he was causing it

Frank. Yes, it made them angry that he would say things.

R. Well this is he thing that goes through your head. You know. You get a hunch like that you don't -- only in the case of an urgency maybe you go help out. You don't make a remark about it. But there's just loads, I'll tell you, what I feel about most of our speakers is that, I'm not saying about all of them or all of their reading. But the thing is, they're not, you're out after the understanding of your own mind. This is what you're dedicated to. You're not reading along those lines. You're not reading the books on real psychology. I mean like scientific psychology, chemical, chemical psychology. You have chemical psychology, biochemical, in relation to brain structure.

dm5-18:08

I don't know what you're reading. But a lot of this stuff is like, you read about Gurdjieff, it's a fairy tale. It's no ?? from Don Juan ?? It gives you a little hint, hunch, that something happens, that there are people who have talents or ability. But there's, if you read deeply into this stuff, there's stuff that's coming out in the last twenty years, it's utterly amazing, the revelation, in my estimation.

And then, also to pick up this stuff. I cut clipping out. I don't know how many of you people do it, but I've got a filing cabinet full of clippings. I stuffed? it because when you run into something, the public forgets it. Charles Fort31 32 is one of the few guys that bothered to try to gather together some of these things that happen, see, down through the hundreds of years. But I've got stuff on mental abilities, like, I mentioned them when I was going to put this Direct-Mind Science thing on a couple years ago.

dm5-19:03

I had a tremendous backlog of information, on the, there was a boy that they'd take up in an airplane, he could see through the earth, he could see the oil deposits. He never missed. He just saw it, same as you'd see an ocean. And they'd drill.

Another born on the West Coast use to talk to the horses in the stable. He shoveled manure for the racetrack. And he'd tell them which horse was going to win. And they'd say, "How'd you know?" And he'd say, "Well, the horse told me. They talked it over. The horses discussed it." And said , "Well, Joe over here he's got up so late today, so you know he's not going to win. The other guy's lame, he doesn't feel good, and the other guy's mad, he didn't get his sugar cube today," or something. They talked it over and they ? exactly? tell, they'd tell him, "Well, it's so-and-so." And of course the gangsters had it figured too. They may have given one on the needle, but the needle wouldn't work if they didn't want to run. But he lost that, incidentally. He lost that.

dm5-20:11

So here's what happens when you read these accounts. Maybe, you say, "Maybe it's b.s. But -- what if it isn't?" Then you find that these stories have common denominators. This is where the science comes in. This is where the science comes in, is how did the boy get that way? When dd it begin and when did it cease? It ceased when he got into puberty. His brother said he couldn't talk. The horses just quit talking to him, or he didn't understand them, one of the two.

So you start to learn things. And these things start to pile up, this, these common denominators pile up and you say, "Hey, we've got a formula." See? We've got a formula.

Think and Grow Rich,33 in his life. Think and Grow Rich, right in the middle of it the guy gives the secret. Right in the middle of the book34, Napoleon Hill, see? But you've got to have that at your fingertips. If you're writing on this, you should have a whole damn folder of typed-out quotations from Napoleon Hill, on how to get rich, what success is, see? And the whole picture, like he says, the whole picture isn't just a matter of spirituality, it's a matter of common-sense biology too. Taking care of the biological carcass.

dm5-21:36

That I feel, that, you know, there's too many, I don't know, I don't know what you're doing. I know what guys are doing where I live. One guy's into detective magazines, because he's got a subconscious thirst for blood. (laughter) The guy with thee red face. (laughter)

Q. Detectives staying? up? late?

R. I don't say there aren't things you can learn. You can learn a hell of a lot from the detective magazines too. Outlaw? But the common denominators are there. You'll learn a lot about psychology, youl learn why people do things. I don't think we get down to th real basic reasons though.

dm5-22:28

But I believe this, that if you could, if a person, if a person can get out, don't just say, "I believe this." No. There are many men who have said this. And quote them. And quote them. And tell the little stories.

B. Weimer. I saw a guy speak at Akron U the other day. In Andy's classroom, physics classroom outside of some. The guy that graduated with a PhD from Columbia in quantum mechanics and all thi other stuff, you know. And he's a professor at OU. And he gave, the title of his lecture was "Quantum Mechanics and the Soul." And his ultimate conclusion in the lecture was that each of us has an observer, which is passive, and that we're all hooked into God, who is an active observer. And he was really using the observer psychology. So after the lecture we had a little coffee and tea, and I said, "you know there's a book out, called "Psychology of the Observer"? And he was really fascinated by it. So I got his address and told him I would send him one. Write him a letter and send him one.

R. If you were a true disciple you would have had it packed on your back there. (laughter)

BW. Well, I'm not a true disciple, that's true.

R. ? (laughter) ?? what her name is. ? We ? the next time. (laughter)

BW. She wasn't with us.

R. She could have been anything?

BW. Why?

R. Somebody in the family's got to be a disciple.

R. But he thought, he believed that God was running the universe, then? BW. Well, he read The Tao of Physics,35 36 but he didn't have too much respect for it. And he hadn't read The Dancing Wu Li Masters,37 38 which is the next book, like the Tao of Physics.

R. Same guy write both of them?

BW. No. But heard better things about this other book, than he did The Tao of Physics. But they were arriving at similar conclusions, that, you know.

dm5-24:35

R. Yeah. I'm not, I've been away from science so long that I can't, I don't, I started reading that Dancing Wu Li Masters. Some of it seems to utterly claim? Some of the claims in some parts of it could be very fanciful.

BC. Yeah, I'll tell you a book that summarizes a lot of those discoveries or trends in science, coordinating with psychic or philosophy, is The Roots of Coincidence by Arthur Koestler,.39 40 this little book.

R. Yeah.

BC. It's sort of like the history of the argument pro and con, against psychic phenomena. And he covers a lot of the big names in science, and where their ultimate thinking led to. How it came full circle.

R. Well I have never, I haven't read too much about it. I could get disgusted with science. You major in chemistry. I realized what happens when you majoring in that sort of thing, you get, it takes up all your time just keeping abreast of the chemical work, chemical, new implements and new directions of chemistry. And I no more than got a couple years into some chemistry, and by the time I graduated, an entire new chemistry was taking over and all the important jobs ?? at? the? bottom? are going? chemistry.

dm5-25:47

Now I don't know what's taking over. I think the quantum mechanics has run its course its course and just become a plain, average type of direction. I don't think they're expanding long? or ?? ?? They had to ?? everybody on demand in polymer chemistry after I got out of college

dm5-26:15

But I think that in science -- Einstein hit this note years ago on the basic concept of relativity. You get into these, Ouspensky, that was a think that ? Ouspensky ? makes an interesting person to read, because he was knowledgeable along physics, the line of physics. And he wrote a book on, related to space-time continuum, New Model of the Universe.41

dm5-26:59

R. But these, you can't get into all that in a lecture. You don't dare. Because you boggle the mind. You boggle the, the listener has to be told, you have to talk in terms of three oranges and two apples.

Q. Jesus used to  ? miles, you know, for telling little stories.

R. Right. The parable. Yeah, right.

Q. He told style?

R. Right. That's what you have, well this was, in that part of the world, to this day yet, you had your professional story-tellers, that all their, the biggest part of the morality and their philosophy, like the sutras, it's always anecdotes and even jokes. And there's a tremendous lot of philosophy behind them. But that's what it took, to make this stuff stick. To make, to get the point across.

dm5-27:46

I think there's nothing more effective now, on a one-to-one basis, where, or you know, like a person talking to four or five people, than to use the idea of indirect. Like irony, speaking ironically

BW. This Gabe Campbell gives workshops up in this church every Wednesday, there are about four people every Wednesday. And he reads the stories of Nasrudin.42

R. Yeah?

BW. From the Sufi books. That's the whole thing. There's no talks with them, just work exercises.

R. My father would have made a good Sufi, because ... He never gave any of us hell, there were four of us boys. He never gave any of us hell. He just made wisecracks. I had a brother who stayed here at the farm and wouldn't work. The other brother worked his rear end off. So he told the oldest brother, he'd look at him, and he'd be eating at the table. And he'd say, I've just got one thing to ask you, Joe," he says. "Don't carry that into town. If you have to take a crap, do it out in the corn field," he said. "We've got to keep something." (laughs) Let? take? care? up? on? the farm. Well that would drive Joe into a rage, but there was a lot of wisdom behind it. That was the only contribution he could make. ?? his ass.

And I remember a lot of those things that he'd get off, and they were real, they were really to the point. He was in a beer joint and a bunch of these guys standing up to the bar drinking, and they were al bitching because they couldn't get a six day week. And he wasn't saying anything. He knew he was expected to comment, because everybody was bitching and you got to get in on the thing. He said, "Well, I believe that if people want to work they should be allowed." Work was just something he could ?? in, that's all. And he thought people were dupes for wanting to tie themselves down to six days when they only had to tie themselves down to five.

It didn't occurred to them that they could have went out and with this other two days and start a private enterprise. Or do some reading if they didn't want to make money. They could have used the two days. The sixth day, that's only tax money anyhow.

dm5-30:12

TF. Well, my lecture was basically telling people everything they didn't want to hear, and dropping an H-bomb on ... (laughter)

Q. ??

Pat. Some time I want to her more about that.

TF. You do? dm-5 ends at 30:29

File dm6

Total time: 30:27 Marked “scan”

dm6-00:00

Lou. It's an expert case of knowledge in a certain field. And each one of them comes in from a slightly different angle. But at the same time, we're hoping that there's going to be a common theme for all of these. And of course all of them are also going to be tied into the common theme of the Summer Chautauqua.43

period of since

DG. Is that my cue?

Q. (yes)  ?? something else to say

DG. Well, I think it would be good if each one of the speakers just said a word or two about what their talks are going to be about. When they're speaking and what their talks are going to be about.

SH. Just to follow that, we saw that this morning, we got one in the mail. Jim did. And it looks good, the descriptions are good.

DG. So Jake, why don't you tell us a little about yourself, where you were born ...

MJ. No, no, no.

DG. What you are talking about ?? talking with or to.

chit-chat

dm6-01:14

MJ. I'm talking in Canton and Akron, and basically my talk is going to start out with a critique of psychology and go through Gross' The Psychological Society.44 I'm then going to work into men and women in society and, plus, make some postulates about, I'm going to call it Conservation Therapy.45 And work through differences in men and women's brains, different evidence in that, into some things on brain research, then into  ?? what is mind, and the connection between mind and brain, you know, what are the different theories on that. From there I'm going into like perception and how what you see out there is actually in your head, it's not actually out there. Then go into paradigms, how you create your reality from your concept structures. And then try to work into, like a theory of cl?? phenomena, like from working from, how you manipulate the paradigm or your concept structures, and tie this in with psychic phenomena.

dm6-02:40.

BC. That's a lot of area.

DG. You get all that for only three dollars, too. chit chat

DG. I told him he had to cut it from two hours to one hour.

MJ. I only had 15 minutes for the talk. (laughter)

Q. Are there questions and answers afterwards to open it up?

DG. Yes, we're going to get back, absolutely, that's the second half of out program here.

Lou. One thing of course we are going to do will be selling tickets to the summer Chautauqua, at these lectures. So preferably? the whole program has to be designed so that will not be neglected, because that's very important feature. But we'll discuss the techniques for that later, to study the mind-manipulation techniques. (laughter)

DW. Where's Bill?

Bill King. Over here. I'm speaking on the possibility of man's duplicating mental processes using a computer. It's called "artificial intelligence." And basically it's the question of whether or not man can duplicate the mental processes using hardware. Registers, electronics, or whatnot. And basically what the presentation will be about is the different scientists at the current level of investigation, and different theories they have on how the brain works, and how they're about to try to duplicate that, using electronics.

dm6-04:15

There are a lot of very strange theories, and a lot of them come up with conclusions. They all \"?.l seem to think that, they haven't reached any limit yet, but they always have a view of the human mind which is so transcendental that it seems almost impossible for them to be able to duplicate it. The idea is that the human mind is able to get an overview of itself, whereas the computer can never see a view of itself, can never ? a different perspective. So this is one item there.

Th idea that there's some anterior observer -- several writers have alluded to this in so many different and varying words that are very similar to The Psychology of the Observer. [gap in tape] ... totally hopeless, as far as the ? ?

dm6-04:57

R. Was that book, The Tao of Physics along that line?

BK. No.

BC. How will this tie into the direct-mind theme of the whole summer? 46

BK. The that ties it in is this idea of experience. The only thing that input? is for sure, the only thing that you can be certain of is your experiences. And yet science can't ope with that. And when we talk about a mind or somebody experiencing, what is this? How do you duplicate this process of experiencing?

R. The experiences aren't real either. BK. Yes, but what I'm saying is, the only thing that you can really base any kind of, anything on that you know, is basically experience. What comes in from what you perceive, or what you think.

Somebody, maybe Frank, comes it. Q. Hi guys. Hi.

R. You're right. You're right, there. The qualification of it is something that has to come later

BK. But the first thing that ? is totally undefinable in terms of science. How do you duplicate that electronically? But then who is experiencing that process of experience?

dm6-06:14

Q. And you say, "Can a computer ever know itself?"

BK. Anyway, it will only be two dollars. (laughter)

Frank. There's the real Bill King. (laughter)

dm6-06:37

DG. Do you want, we were just going through an having the speakers give a little bit of an idea about what where they are going to be talking, and what they are going to be talking about. S it's your turn.

Frank. It is? (laughter) Want me to tell you about the three stitches ?? in my hand ?? Give me a little time.

DG. I appreciate it. How about you?

Chitchat-chat.

DG. Ok I'll tell you what I'm going to be talking about, while these guys regroup. I'm talking in Baltimore and in DC in a couple of weeks. And my talk's going to be probably the least esoteric in its direction, and it's going to be talking about success,47 and the way to attain success, and the different principles of success. And the basic theme is going to be that in order to be successful, you have to be successful in every level of life. You can't just be successful in your career and family, or even in your philosophic work if you have that direction, that you have to tackle everything the same way, using the same principles. And I'm going to present the Direct-Mind Science as the system, that we have these principles, and show how they work for us on a mundane level or a physical level, as far as we have been able to be successful in our business, and then also trying in some of the different incidents that have happened in the group, and with Mr Rose in particular. And spice it up with a lot of incidents from the Penitentiary. (laughter)

dm6-08:06

Lou. Dave's going to have our bank statement on a transparency and put it up on an overhead projector and show how every month we are making more and more money. (laughter)

R. When I get credit for all this I'm going to sue like these whores out in California, get my twenty percent. (laughter)

DG. But how this is going to tie in to direct-mind, it's going to this.

Frank. You know, some people I hear talking around the group, they'll mention how this direct-mind necessarily, is, corresponds to success. And I've heard some people even say that possibly they didn't see this. Is being that you can use direct-mind as a way of being successful. And even, how would you answer that, if someone says, "Is this thing supposed to be spiritual, or is it good for your business?"

DG. Well, it depends. The basic thing is going to be, that regardless of what you want to succeed on, this is the most propitious way to do it. If you want to make money, you can't do it with your intellect alone. you have to find certain principles where you tap into something higher. Because if you're going to be successful, and overcome everything that's going to present all the obstacles that are going to be presented to you, you have to tap more than just your intellect, or even more than your energy or your will power.

dm6-09:25

R. Even in the business world, you're going to have a computer that takes in the increasing number of millions of factors that go into functioning in everyday live. Just like, how do you keep the kid, when you're out at work, from falling and hurting the kid? (wording) There are just millions of factors. And you can't logically, there's a guy who had an an intensive down in Texas, and he was a devout Christian. And when we saw that on TV he charged 600 bucks, and these were people coming in to learn how to sell pots and pans. And I know, one guy, they interviewed one his guys who had taken this course before. And he went up and hugged the guy. And they said, "What do you think of this guy?" And he says, "He's the next best, most important guy next to Jesus Christ."

Those are the words he used. And of course he was acting exuberant and all that. But this guy, his idea was that you'll accept the God-principle or something, and it keeps you on a certain course. Because people know what to expect out of yo. You're not going to steal from them, you're going to produce a service, and you hold your head a certain way. And eventually the public gets the idea that you're dad serious. You're not, you're going to serve, you're going to give them something for their money, and that sort of thing.

dm6-10:49

I presume that's part of the angle, but I don't know. Of course, they likewise think that it's maybe a magic that comes down from invoking the right names, I don't know.

But that was a very, I thought that was very important because it was the first time I heard that. It wasn't a denominational talk. Even if this guy wasn't advocating any religion, like Alcoholics Anonymous, they say you have to accept a spiritual savior to be freed from alcohol completely. And it works. I mean, this is statistics. The few drunks who get away from it are people who went to Jesus, went to Buddha, I don't know who they went to, but they took a spiritual pledge.

dm6-11:35

It's somehow, I think of course that what interferes with a lot of people in businesses is their egos. And whenever you make up your mind that you're surrendering your ego to something else, then that, your ego isn't so offensive.

BK. Is it like displacing your ego onto another figure, like onto a Christ or something?

R. It's dedication, yeah. There, just like Dave said, you've got, in other words, you have to be, within yourself. It isn't the public that gives a damn. They don't ask you whether you're a Presbyterian or a Methodist when you go out to sell pots and pans. But your attitude. You never tell them. They weren't to go out and tell people that. They were to prove it. They were to be Christians. They were to be one hundred percenters. And then things started to happen to them. And it may ?? mysterious ?? you to think. People look you over as soon as you come up knocking on the door. They look you over, and if you've go a larcenist glint in your eye, they're going to dodge you, that's all.

dm6-12:43

But you're to give them the message. Feel? you? can? Help them out, help yourself out, that's cardinal. I think it's jusst an attitude that rubs off on them, on the public. And it has to be real. It can't be something that you're going to put on.

But I think in those, when you let yourself down to any frame of mind, and don't try to shift from the cunning person to the honest person, back to the guy who's going to chop his way through with an ax, and the next thing he's going to be a logician and do it with logic. You're not going to be anybody. You're going to be just, you're going to be flopping around between careers, and I can point you out some people like that right now, you know. They're not moving. They've got too many objectives. Too many objectives all at once.

dm6-13:35

But yet their objectives are scattered. You can have many objectives if they don't conflict with each other. If your spiritual search doesn't conflict with your business, it will help your business. But you have to set a priority. And that was the name of the game that this guy was putting across. This was your priority, if you had more or less a spiritual attitude toward your fellowman. And of course towards yourself.

Frank. And he said that that wold help them get what they want?

R. Oh, these guys didn't mind giving him the 600 bucks. When they walked out they were convinced.

See, I said this years ago. This is a new psychology. All it needs and ? is words, I mean the proper language has not been told. But he told it, that guy put it across. But he put it across as a salesman. I believe that the psychologists don't have it yet. The psychologists don't have this message yet.

dm6-14:36

Frank. This Sadony, when he says that this, how this would tie in, how you could use, ?? his mental powers, that he had the intuition to pick up things. He said that, I thought it was outrageous maybe, in my point of view, but maybe it isn't. He said that even for people who had, avoid accidents. Because it was like, that was sort of like what Gurdjieff said. He said that, "What keeps a guy, why does a guy that's supposed to go on an airplane all of a sudden turn around, before he gets on and walks back out, and it crashes? " He says "What is it about that guy?" Or how does this happen. And he ...

Q. ?? the bomb (laughter)

rank. And he says, that's an ability, a sensitivity. You know, do you want to call it direct-mind or intuition? But he's able to pick things up. It's maybe just on a business level too. If you have the right kind of mind, you can see, like when I got in with that, I worked for that Jewish guy who stuck me, you know.

Q. No, no, no, ok. (laughter)

Q. Some of his best friends are ... (crosstalk)

R. Lebanese. (laughter)

dm6-16:03

Frank. You can sense things are going to happen.

update Aug 11, 2024

R. Mafia

Frank. I mean, to me I thought it was kind of a, it was a brash statement. He was sort of condemning all people who get in accidents or do things wrong because they don't have the proper mental perception. They don't have this feeling that he was talking about. That they could pick? things up.

Q. Do you think he was condemning? I got the feeling he was more ...

Frank. He wasn't condemning them, he was just saying that's a fact. That we have, all this information is available.

Q. I got th feeling that wanted to kind of, he sort of ?? to drop the hint that he wanted to help save mankind by giving them insights, or teaching them to have that direct-mind ability, so that they could avoid accidents, avoid war. I was wondering, what was his thinking on that? Do you want to talk more about this?

R. [Note: During this conversation R is talking/joking with someone in the background but the words were not distinguishable.]

Frank. Yeah but he thinks everybody has that power but it gets developed ?? That everybody could see a bad business, or see a proper move in their life, if they could manage to listen to their inner hunches and their feelings, that you ?? avoid things.

dm6-17:22

R. Water before. ? talking.

Q. Did he tell you that before or after the discussion?

Frank. Who, Sadony? No, that's just a book I read. I don't think he was selling too much of anything. I don't know that much about him, from this book. He seemed like a pretty sincere person. And you know in his conviction

dm6-17:44

DG. Do you want to talk a little about what you're going to talk about Frank?

Frank. Try again ? it come around high? and? dry?

DG. Just to sum up something, I think the main thing is you've got to practice betweenness. And you have to find a word for it, a language for it, whether it's going to be on a mundane level ...

R. Well, you see the betweenness is something that comes after you get -- this is what you recognize. Actually, there's a certain way of life that prepares a person. In other words, we go back to, there's even body chemistry or intuition. We were talking about this earlier, right over here, like this latest discovery of serotonin. And where the parts of the body it's formed in, and the reason it's only found in the brain tissue itself and the mucus membrane and the male semen.

dm6-18:35 And this I think is a discovery in just the last few decades.1 But it's the foundation and basis of intuitional people for ten thousand years,2 that they protected and conserved their semen. For magical rites if nothing else. Also for education or gaining certain goals. Athletes, who wanted to transmute it into muscle or whatever they wanted to transmute it into.

But there's a certain, there's a lot of things that can be, that this entail, if people want to. The thing is, they don't want to. They want to respond to it, what I consider the dream that they punched into. They punched into a certain dream of enjoyment, appetites, egos, that sort of thing. And they want to make that whole thing come true. But instead of making it come true, they make themselves come apart. And eventually they fertilize the soil.

dm6-19:37

But to make a mark -- you can say that everybody's going to fertilize the soil -- but to make a mark before you fertilize the soil, and to live judiciously, and to get the most out of your energy with the least amount of scars, this is the point.

Frank. Yeah, it's funny, he said about boxers, they started this about a month ago, they said, they talked about the fact that they conserve, thy didn't sleep with their wives or anything, even the guys who were married, they didn't sleep with their wives while they were training.

R. They rarely do that now.

Frank. Yes, I was going to say that.

R. This is the "new age", and I predicted this 10 years ago, that there's only going to be a handful of people in this country that's going to survive this sanctification of perversion. The sanctification of all forms of bestiality, sexuality of any sort. The thing is that everybody is sweet, if everybody else can treat the other perverts sweetly.

dm6-20:34

And the result is, the younger generation, who at one time we had certain religious sects that tried to educate the children and keep them ? ? clean. That's going to the board because all the nuns and priests now are perverts. Not all of them, but I mean the ones that aren't ? avoid? ? about the things they have to become. What do you call it? Popular, up-to-the times, see.

So these discoveries I think are coming in good time, but? I don't? know? I know now that there are no athletes, you never hear of them, an athlete restraining himself while he's training. They say, "??" They're coming out with evidence. You can produce evidence on either side if you wish. You can always bring out an argument: "Here's one guy that ... see, you can stimulate yourself," You can sit here and claim to stimulate yourselves, but they'll burn out a lot quicker.

 thinking? in? sex? will stimulate themselves too, but their whole system will go much quicker

dm6-21:40

Frank. What was that movie about, it was Jack LaMotta, Raging Bull? 3

Q. Yeah, he was celibate when he was training.

Q. They asked him about that too, they said, "Do you think it helped?" And he said, "Well, I don't know if it helped, but it sure gave you a vicious edge." (laughter) They say that when he went in he just went nuts.

Frank. Was that the guy, the girl was ?? he was real jealous, and he wasn't having sex with her

Q. Yeah. And he thought his brother was screwing her.

dm6-22:19

BK. When I saw that movie I thought they were trying to portray, in at least the movie, was that he was really jealous because he was celibate. Did you get that feeling?

Frank. I didn't see the movie, I just read about it.

R. He wasn't jealous but he had to be [for the movie]

BK. It seems like that's what they were doing, they were poking fun at being celibate now, as if were useless.

dm6-22:42

Rose. Well, anyhow, this is again the thing, the reason that, I guess from the beginning of time there were certain things that you didn't dare talk about too plainly, or the animals would pounce on you. This is to a degree of being a geist, a zeitgeist. Beware of the zeitgeist. Because if you preach? a moral code, unless you've got walls around your monastery ... noise ... inaudible ... (laughs) That's the reason they built the walls years ago. People didn't like it.

Frank. It seems maybe that people were more into it or had more of this knowledge like what you're talking about years ago, maybe ...

R. Before the high technology. See, what's happened is, you've got a lot of high technology now. And people are engrossed 16 hours a day. We've got all kinds of damn gimmicks, but you still work 16 hours a day. And the bureaucratic mess, it's getting so you've got to work 30 days out of the month or maybe more. The cop on the corner, every time you go out he wants to tow yur car away, or he wants to fine you for crossing the line. See? Everybody's out to grab the working man.

dm6-23:54

And you hear this n Congress today. That the Democrat, what's his name? Speaker of the House.

Q. Tip O'Neil?

R. H?e wants to bring out taxes, see. but there's no, they know at the same time the millionaires, the big corporations, those people, are being subsidized. Instead of paying they're getting subsidies. We're buying people, we're bribing, we're bribing people in Central America. But all the time there's the little guy who's going to be so damn busy he can't think. Your only hope is to become a millionaire so you have time to think. But by the time you become a millionaire, you're on your way to becoming a billionaire. So the most miserable.

I often thought this. Geez, these Rockefellers and people who have a wonderful position to just go into their library and read those books and relax, and have some accountant take care of their business. You think they'd do it? Hell no, you see how they go.

TF. Have you heard of the guy who supposedly was the richest man in the world, Getty or something lik tat ...

R. Right.

TF. They asked him, "How much money do you have to make?" After he's made so much. And he said, "Just a little more." That's what he said. "Just a little more."

dm6-25:17

R. That's all that was left. (laughter)

TF. It's always, just a little more.

R. Another thing, they'd have a wonderful opportunity, and also to do exactly what they wanted to do in the lineof educating their children. They could pay a chemist to come into the basement and set up a chemistry lab and do experiments, or anything they wished. No, they're out there finding new sexual perversions. That's what's killing that Nelson, Nelson Rockefeller.4 He wasn't satisfied with having only one, he had to have two or three working on him at once.

dm6-26:00

Jack Kennedy was the knight on the white horse. Fifteen hundred while he was in the White House. There ain't anything wrong with him being killed -- his time was up, you're only entitled to so many. (laughter)

Q. He had his women.

R. He kept them happy. (laughter) ? so much. He was able to do a little politicking while he was ? times.

Q. That's amazing.

R. But the whole thing is, I can see your, you can't, the mistake that I made in most of my lectures was the direct approach. And the direct approach is no good, for the human race. Nobody in a lecture wants to be told. They want to suddenly realize. So in order for them to have sudden realizations, you must begin by telling anecdotes. About three chickens and the rooster, or the fox that got into the box? had one, but didn't get the other, because the one chicken had intuition.

But I found that out, that the public generally likes to ... and these, I noticed that with these people, especially the ones on the west coast, they don't say anything. They don't basically say anything. They don't oppose anything. They're good ?? This Bhaktivedanta,5 he never opposed anything, until he got his, he led them to believe that anything went, in the line of sex.6

Rajneesh, "anything goes." If you want to be a saint, you've got to be a sexual saint. So hell, he didn't have any trouble holding? recruits. And all these people who are making millions on their so-called movements, cults, Clare Prophet,7 ? It's a fairy tale. They talk about a fairy tale. Spiral staircases with yogis looking down through the banisters at you.

dm6-28:28

And adults are swarming to that. Why? Because they're very damned unhappy with their own private lives but they don't want to catch hell. And they can't take hell. Whenever you touch them in a sensitive spot ... I've watched them when I went up to give lectures. I've seen women start to faint. Women while ? they'll follow the first one believe ? ? That's how you can tell if my lectures are effective. (laughter) People will leve, because they can't stand it.

They'll sit there and they're not paying any attention, and all at once they catch a vein of understanding, that, "He means this. Oh." And then their eyes will widen, and they get wider, and finally you see them looking desperately for a way out. And they jump up and make it out the door. Because this is no good, to have to think along these lines. You know, you don't stare a corpse in the face, especially when it's your own.

dm6-29:23

But, I believe that these correlations, what I'm talking about is, there's all sorts of, and that's the reason I wanted to bring this, later on, to get into this business of, if, when your business is, you inject your business in as rapidly as possible, once I get the rat? on everybody. Can't get much more done, see. (laughter)

But I find out that it's the, Sadony, this, just like, you can gt up and talk about Sadony, but you can't talk about yourself. See? And everybody in the group could be talking about themselves to a certain degree, but if thy talk too much about themselves, everybody gets bored stiff. Unless you're talking about how many whorehouses you made in th. Like the guy in Columbus, what's his name? Vignettes in Zen.

dm6-03:15

Q. Wimberley? Wimbeling?

R. Yeah. W? wrote a book on his tour of the French whorehouses in Paris.

Q. The Pregnant Forties.8 File dm6 ends at 30:27

File dm7

Total time: 30:10 Marked “3"

dm7-00:00 (LOUD)

Burns. ... to bed? often with the best.

R. Inaudible

Burns. That's right, they're out there shopping for losers.

Pat. What we were talking about last night is how women have power but the men that treat themselves like whores.

Burns. That's right.

Pat. But ? ? They don't value themselves. They're begging to give it way.

Burns. That's right. That's exactly ...

Pat. So they give, this guy was saying, these have these bodies and have such power over men. And I said, no. These men are giving their power away ...

R. They're damn fools. They're damn fools.

Pat. They're being whores.

R. I know that. I have a lot of respect for whores, though. I don't know why. But they damn themselves, see.

Pat. Some of them out now are at least being honest about it.

Rose. They're lubrication mechanics, that's all. You go into the grease rack once a week, and ... And they are like nuns, see? I was working at a plant up with ?? there ...

Burns. Well they are, when you think about it. They're dedicated to a single purpose ... crosstalk

dm7-00:37

R. They're like nuns.

Pat. In service to mankind.

Burns. To many kind, not mankind (laughter) But if you think about it, there are very few other people on this earth that are so single minded about it, about anything. You know, that's really odd. Somebody get into that business when they are fifteen years old and still be working at it when they're fifty. Well that takes a hell of a lot of dedication. You have to be getting something out of it.

R. Luck.

Burns. Luck or something.

R. Because if they get the wrong thing out of it they only live to about forty.

Burns. That's right. Well, that's the other half. I mean, when it comes to sex I will admit to being a devout orthodox and succeeding (?) coward. Somebody else's diseases I can do without. To tell you the truth it scares me off. It really does. No ? about it. That isn't my only comment I could make on the subject, but that will do for present company. (laughter)

R. If George Patrick gets here ... (laughter)

dm7-02:21

R. No, I took a job up the river as a supervisor of maintenance. I didn't? they didn't mention anything until I got to work in there and I? had? come to get the paycheck out, and they came out? wanted to know if I would donate to the Red Feather.9 And I said, I pretended I didn't know what it was. I said, "What's it for?" And he said, "Well, it's for various charitable causes." nd I said, "But wht charitable causes?" He said, "I'll get you a paper that tells where all these donations go to." So he brought it in and I looked at it, and I said, "I can't donate." He says, "Why not?" I said, "My three charities aren't here." And he says, "What are they?" And I said, "There are three classes of people who are not taken care of. And that's wayward nuns who have left the convent and can't get unemployment, and whores who are worn out and can't gt on Social Security, and pimps who the whores have put out of business when they left." And this guy looked at m and walked away. (laughter) Whores, pimps and wayward nuns.

dm7-03:34

R. eah, a whore wears out when she is about 35-40 years of age, and what's she going to do? She can't draw Social Security. She's not disabled. You know, she's still living, she can't, you know, she's made a hell of a contribution to society. Oh, you'd b surprised the psychoses. It's like BF Skinner says. They are Skinnerian psychologists, these whores are. Because they keep the pressure down. Whenever you destroy the whorehouses in a city the pressure goes up and all kinds of things happen.

BK. All kinds of schizo crimes tart coming out.

R. Right, right. The guys acting out the pornographic pictures.

Burns. Well, it's a crazy business.

dm7-04:30

Burns. Thy say there ain't nothing like being alive, but I've never found an alternative.

Pat. Ok, right now I don't ?? but I'm in the Masters program at Pitt in counselor? education. And things will be coming down the wire and you know, I don't know if this method is what's true, and I need t just take it at face value, or ? test or ? coming down the wire that, "You're not fit to do this." Somebody, this one group telling you, "You're too bright," somebody telling me, "You're too defensive, somebody telling me, "You're running too many games." So for some reason they're telling me I don't fit. And you know, in my heart, what I really want to do is I want to do therapy. That's what I really want to do. I think I? could? make a great contribution, if I could be good at it.

R. Well I think it's a damn good thing to do. I ? ?

dm7-05:45

Pat. But the thing is, is if I'm really not meant to be doing this, you know, and I'm very confused. And so I just wanted to run that by you and ?

R. Well, I don't know how I could advise you to become something. But I think that, you know, I'm not very much in favor of therapists, of psychologists and psychiatrists being therapists unless they have intuition. This is what I claim they miss. You can't get it from books. See?

Pat. Right.

R. You take an ordinary person, just like George here, would make a better therapist than anybody I know. Because he has the intuition. Of course he has suffered, too.  ?? learned the hard way.

But I think you've got the type of mind that is flexible enough, and you perceive things that other people haven't perceived. You're not a fanatic. But what I'm wondering is, if you'd had the intuition enough to know how to help.

Pat. I'm wondering that ...

R. See this is ...

Pat. if this is a message from the universe saying, "Do something else"? Or is this a test?

R. Well ...

Pat. Or just something I need to go through.

R. I believe that ah, we were talking about direct-mind, and you were? in? the? other? room? This is what I think is necessary. I think that, in fact, when we first kicked this thing off a couple years ago,10 We tried to put ? at Brown University 11 with the hope of getting graduate people to tke a breather course in this, to get into it, and try and learn to pick up things intuitively, instead of by ink blots and visible testing, materialistic testing of a subjective matter, a subjective talent.

dm5-07:37

The next step is: what to do. What you do after you find out. Now, the average therapist can't do anything. What they do is they form people into encounter groups. And this is the same, read Seabrook's Asylum.12 William Seabrook. He consigned himself to Bellevue, New York. [for his alcoholism] And their sole treatment for these catatonic -- schizophrenics as they called them -- ? ? trouble ? catatonic. There were catatonic people who just stood like statues like this and wouldn't move. He tells hows these people accidentally cured themselves. Everybody accidentally cured themselves. And the whole professional field? stood in the background watching, and this was the ? : "hey, he changed. Move him up from room 6 to room 5. They first put you in room 10 and then moved you up. When you got to room 1 you were next to the door.

dm7-08:38

That's all they did. Less violence, see. And this case, when I was in Florida there was a case where a guy killed a little boy, down in Florida, jerked him in a door and slashed his throat. This guy was discharged from a nuthouse up in Massachusetts. And tis nuthouse was run by professional people, who decided that the police would be better able to handle him than them. That's the excuse they gave for putting him out on the street.

So I consider the whole psychiatric field as a failure. That's just one instance. I say we're getting hundreds and hundred of them. If you can't pump them full of dope, turn them lose.

dm7-09:17

Even in Pittsburgh one time they did the ice pick operation 13 on a guy and turned him loose, an he went out and killed a man. So all this stuff doesn't answer the essence of man, or something behind the brain.

dm7-09:30

Now, but how do you get through? Now this thing is, in turn, this is a highly intuitional. That, for instance, I do things, around people -- like I said -- I don't want you to think that everything I say is duplicitous, that I'm using double standards or anything. Because I try to be very sincere with people, when talking to them. But what I will do, with a certain person, whom I think he's got or she's got a certain hangup, then I will follow a certain procedure. Guided by my intuition.

dm7-10:06

Now mostly this is concerned with seeing the path they came (by) and reversing it. And to do it effectively, as a therapist, you generally can' do all the things that you have to do, see? So consequently you have an encounter group, and you wait until they get smart enough, somebody in that encounter group to get smart enough, to suggest it.

Paat: And you can set that up.

R. Right, right. If you're smart you can set that whole thing up, and say, "What do you think?" and, "What do you think?" And let's take this line then, "What do you think on this line?" and you can enlarge on that line, until it gets right down to he point of therapy that you want to induce. And they'll think they're doing it themselves, and they'll be much happier, and everybody concerned will be much happier, and you won't be sued for malpractice.

dm7-10:57

Now, these things are, to me, for instance, I, like I was telling you about, the little girl who came down here some years ago. And she had an obsession for getting married, or getting pregnant, or something. She didn't care about getting married but she eventually did. She wasn't crazy, there was nothing wrong with her, except she had been affected by environmental factors when they? were? a kid. Lots of times people act nutty because they've been abused as a child. Now George [Jim Burns] I think was a genus when he was a child.

George: You mean Jim.

R. He was an autictic child. But his old man thought he wasn't productive. So he kicked him around. And so he reacted the right way, that's to go nuts. That's the only way you can. Don't buy their language, get some other langage.

dm7-11:57

But you have to have an insight. And yo cn get this insight, but it has to come from intuition. I had, to give you an example -- it's all I caan do, to give you examples -- because there's no rules to follow. You're past the railroad tracks of logic, when you get into this.

I had a fellow come down to my house, and, very depressed. He joined a group in Kent. And he said, "I'm no damn good." And I said, "Why not?" He says, "Well, I'm a failure in marriage. My wife just divorced me." He said, "I felt like hell so I just gave her everyhing I had, I gave her the money in the bank and I gave her the house." He said, "I have tried to dat other women ..." He was a hell of a nice looking guy not nice looking but nice. Honest, that kind of stuff.

So I lookd him over and didn't see, he wasn't queer or anything He had a hell of a love, he wanted children. He was kicking himself, he wasn't blaming the woman, he never said a bad word about her.

Pat: That was his problem.

R. Right, right.

(Pat: Remarks about somthing.

R. And you know what happened? I sat there and I told him, "You know what's happened? Your wife is a lesbian." He said, "How can you say that?" I said, "I don't know how I can say it." I said, I feel that your wife is a lesbian." GHe said, "Dick, yo're out of line. What riught do you have to taalk about my wife?" See, he was defending her. I said, "Pete, go back and ask her. Go ask her. That's the only way you can tell. Maybe I'm full of crap."

dm7-13:46

He drove clear back up to Cleveland. ?? I was talking to ...Meantime he's taking, he's going to a shrink. He's taking him for 25 or 35 dollars an hour ...

Pat. Trying to figure out what to do ...

R. Hey, you know what the shink told him to do? Switch mates with some other man. Go to one of these swingers clubs. Go to the whorehouse and get five differnt forms of sex, maybe you're not getting satisfied the right way. I thought, "Holy Christ, here goes the whole civilization with these damn shrinks.

So anyhow, he went back up and he says, "Hey, I ran into some old nut down in West Virginia, and he says you're a lesbian. And she says, "Yes, I am."

So then he goes over, he comes back down, and he says, "Son of a bitch, you're right. She admitted it." He says to her, "Well what the hell did you live with me for?" What she was doing, they would have sex, and she'd say, "Is that all you can do?" She wanted French, oral sex,because that's what she'd get from her girl fiend.

And when he told me, he told me that at first. He also told me she had no breasts. And immediately the intuition hit me, that she was a lesbian. She said, "Well, I was insecure. I didn't think I could support myself." He was an engineer.

dm7-15:11

And so anyhow, he came back down, and he said, "You were right, but that's no excuse for me. No one wants me. In fact, (lowers his voice) I tried to switch mates. I had a good friend who was married to a girl. My wife was flat-chested, but this girl had breasts, I thought she was maternal." She was feeding babies, she had babies. And he says, "I've always been attracted to women with breasts, so I made a pass at her. And she laughed in my face."

dm7-15:35

Pat: That's his friend's wife, he doesn't have business doing it.

R. Right! Right! Hey, it wasn't his friend's wife, it was his wife's wife!

Pat: Oh.

R. So I told him. And he said, you know what caused it, caused me to know this? He said, "I had a dream about her. And hen I had the dream she ws wearing pants or something like that." And I thought, "Damn, his unconscious mind knows more than his conscious mind." And I said to him, "That's your wife's lover."

So back he goes to Cleveland. He'd drive clear to Benwood to get these little fragments. And he approaches her again. They're separated and he goes to her house and says, "This guy tells me that so-and-so is your lover." And she says, "That's right." She says, "In fact, I know that you were making a pass at her. We would get together and laugh like hell at your approach."

dm7-16:34

He was getting the laugh from both of them. So you imagine what this poor bastard is going through, thinking that he is lving according to the code.

Pat: But part of him knew that, so why did he set himself up for that?

R. He didn't know it. He didn't know it in his conscious mind.

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Footnotes

To select and paste all footnotes, select one and then Ctr-A to select all. Works in Word, not LibreOffice.

 Url: https:/ 

For information, send email to editors@direct-mind.org

 TAT Journal Issue 3 (Volume 1, Number 3) The Pregnant Witch, by Richard Rose. https://www.searchwithin.org/journal/tat_journal-03.html#3
 PDF: https://www.searchwithin.org/download/pregnant_witch.pdf
 PDF: https://selfdefinition.org/hearing-voices/Barbara-O'Brien-Operators-and-Things-the-Inner-Life-of-a-Schizophrenic.pdf
Reference Casari in Interfaith Forums interview: “I received Transmission from Richard Rose during the Winter of 1981.”
 Rose says elsewhere that he had a dream of her many years earlier.
 Correspondence re 1982 Florida trip is on Discussion page for 1982-03-Tampa-Florida-missing-tape.
 Rose used Chautauqua in its original meaning and never represented to the public any connection with the Chautauqua Institution. See very interesting article at Wikipedia: "Chautauqua is an adult education and social movement in the United States that peaked in popularity in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. ,,, President Theodore Roosevelt said, "It is a source of positive strength and refreshment of mind and body to come to meet a typical American gathering like this."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chautauqua

 Donner–Reed Party, 1846-1847, cannibalism.
 Faulklands war began on April 2, 1982
 Inbreds. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Kallikak_Family
 Actually 6’ 7”. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jay_Rockefeller 
 See Martin Bashir interview of November 1995. Depression, self-harm.
 Evidently as an exercise for the intensive, people were asked to write a definition of direct-mind. This is the first one read, so possibly the earlier portion was not taped.
 https://selfdefinition.org/van-der-leeuw/conquest-of-illusion/
 Gates of the Mind, by Joseph Sadony (autobiography): https://selfdefinition.org/joseph-sadony/gates-of-the-mind/contents.htm 
 Chapter 8. Coinneach Odhar Fiosaiche, a.k.a.The Brahan Seer.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahan_Seer 
 https://selfdefinition.org/brunton/Brunton-Paul-The-Wisdom-of-the-Overself--OCR.pdf 
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Baker_Eddy 
 See newspaper clipping: “Mysterious Footprints on Ceiling at Ephrata Cloister Interest Many Summer Visitors. Philadelphia Inquirer. Sunday, August 13, 1905.  https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-philadelphia-inquirer/8674373/
 Historical Account of the Ephrata Cloister and the Seventh Day Baptist Society. by A. Monroe Aurand, Jr. (A colony of celibate monks) Published 1940, 33 pages. See pages 3 (under illustration) and 14. PDF https://selfdefinition.org/christian/Ephrata-Coister-Historical-Account-by-A.M.Aurand-1940.pdf 
 There is only a tenuous connection between the Rosicrucians and the Ephrata Coister. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Mystical_Order_Rosae_Crucis and  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephrata_Cloister   
 Strange Experience: The Secrets of a Hexenmeister, Lee R. Gandee, 1971. 352 pages.  https://selfdefinition.org/rose/resources/Autobiography-of-a-Hexenmeister-Lee-R-Gandle.pdf
 Here’s what the author says (page 9): “For ten years we shared a strange, exclusive love as deep as any that can be shared by two people; yet he was strongly heterosexual, and we both wanted children. I do not propose to state the outcome of that experience now—only to say that for the past twenty-eight years I have been married, ... etc.” The author in other places in the book is quite open abut his adolescent sexual experiences. With that as a caveat, the book is an intriguing reflection of the West Virginia subculture of everyday psychic experience and folk wisdom bordering on witchcraft that R used to talk about at the kitchen table. Reading the book you can easily imagine yourself back there. Just a look at the table of contents could cause a few hairs to raise on your neck. 
 The author points out the similarity of his views with th Seth material. Richard Rose remarks in his 1977 lecture Introduction to the Albigen System: “ I know that certain acts people do will make them fey. You know what I mean by that? I use that word, it's a Scottish term – because a lot of Scottish people were psychic – but it was a particular type of psychic. They could tell the future; they could see it. There are certain things that change your body chemistry. And I'd prefer not to go into them at a public meeting. But I know that these people get fey. They can hear all sorts of voices, and if they wish to they can write them down ad infinitum. And I believe that the woman in connection with Seth is that way.”   https://www.direct-mind.org/index.php/1977-0426-Intro-to-Albigen-System-Cleveland 
 Invented 1440.
 Meetings With Remarkable Men, 
 Check other talks. This must be the man who said he didn't eat.
 (1877-1960) Autobiography: https://selfdefinition.org/joseph-sadony/gates-of-the-mind/
 Butler, Pennsylvania.
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telephone_magneto 
 (1874-1932) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Fort
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortean_Society
 Napoleon Hill, 1937.
 Chapter 11  https://selfdefinition.org/celibacy/quotes/napoleon-hill-sex-transmutation-part-1.htm
 PDF 584K. https://selfdefinition.org/science/Fritjof-Capra-The-Tao-of-Physics.pdf
 Fritjof Capra, 1975, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tao_of_Physics
 https://selfdefinition.org/science/Gary-Zukav-Dancing-Wu-Li-Masters-Overview-of-the-New-Physics.pdf
 Gary Zukav, 1975.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dancing_Wu_Li_Masters
 PDF 5.7 megs. https://selfdefinition.org/science/Arthur-Koestler-The-Roots-of-Coincidence-1973.pdf
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Roots_of_Coincidence 
 PDF 6 megs. https://selfdefinition.org/gurdjieff/Ouspensky-A-New-Model-of-the-Universe.pdf 
 The Exploits of the Incomparable Mulla Nasrudin, 1966.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exploits_of_the_Incomparable_Mulla_Nasrudin
 Missing tape. 1982-0619-Chautauqua-Farm-missing-tape. See Wiki page for a long newspaper article published in :ittsburgh Post-Gazette after the event. Seminar Speakers Show Power of Mind Control 

https://www.direct-mind.org/index.php/1982-0619-Chautauqua-Farm-missing-tape

 The psychological society : a critical analysis of psychiatry, psychotherapy, psychoanalysis and the psychological revolution, 1978. https://archive.org/details/psychologicalsoc0000gros/

 https://selfdefinition.org/celibacy/quotes/mark-jaqua-conservation-therapy.htm
 Tapes are missing for both the Summer Chautauqua in June, and the event "A Weekend with Richard Rose" in August, 1982.
 Rose gave a series of talk on the topic Peach of Mind in Spite of Success in April and May of 1984.
 NIH: Serotonin was discovered in 1937 by Vialli and Erspamer in enterochromaffin cells of the gut, where >90% of the body's serotonin is synthesized. Rapport and Page crystallized and coined the term serotonin in 1948, confirming the smooth muscle contractile effects of “serum tonic”
 Perhaps Rose gets this time frame from Blavatsky.
 1980. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raging_Bull
 Rockefeller died in a apartment he owned while visiting an apparent mistress. It took her an hour to decide to call an ambulance.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_Rockefeller#Death 
 Head of the Hare Krishna movement. 
 Rose personally knew Keith Ham ("Kirtanananda Swami") the leader of the Krishna settlement next to Rose's farm, and a notorious sex criminal.
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Clare_Prophet
 Need reference.
 Symbol of Community Chests, a forerunner to United Way. 
 See 1978-Direct-Mind-Intensive-WV, 1981-Intensive-Farm, possibly others.
 Providence, Rhode Island. 1975-1118-Brown-University-missing-tape. Set up by Bill King.  https://www.direct-mind.org/index.php/1975-1118-Brown-University-missing-tape
 1935. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asylum_(Seabrook_book)
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobotomy

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