1975-0227-Carnegie-Mellon-Q-and-A-Pittsburgh

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Title	1975-0227-Carnegie-Mellon-Q-and-A-Pittsburgh
Recorded date	Feb. 27, 1975
Location	Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh
Number of tapes
Other recorders audible?
Alternate versions exist?	Audio quality horrible(compare: MJ, DM, EOG and Gary)
Source	Jaqua - dated 2/6 and 2/27 -- new: Mettle dated 2/25
No. of MP3 files	3 mp3 files = 31 min, 31 min, 16 min
Total time	1 hr 18 min
Transcription status	SH set up page Jan 23, 2014
Link to distribution copy	http://distribution.direct-mind.org/ (need password)
Link to PDF	http://distribution.direct-mind.org/ Or try http://selfdefinition.org/rose/
Published in what book?
Published on which website?
Remarks
Audio quality	Awful even with headset
Identifiable voices
URL at direct-mind.org	https://www.direct-mind.org/index.php/1975-0227-Carnegie-Mellon-Q-and-A-Pittsburgh
	For access to this wiki or the audio files please send an email to: editors@direct-mind.org
Revision timestamp	20241203180549

Pittsburgh Post-Gazette article Feb 15, 1974 (Google says 1975)

NOTE: THIS IS TO HIGHLIGHT POSSIBLE DATE CONFUSION. SAME DATE AT CMU IN 1975 AND 1975 -- GOOGLE NEWS ARTICLE SHOWS 1975 BUT THE PAPER MICROFILM SAYS 1974.

>> Note, this is for Thursday 2/21/1974 at Pitt 1974-0221-Zen-and-Esoteric-Spiritual-Paths-Pitt-missing-tape

>> and 2/27/1974 at CMU 1974-0227-Carnegie-Mellon-missing-tape

Pitt, CMU Slate Lectures on Zen [1974!!]

A lecture series on "Zen and Esoteric Spiritual Paths" will be given by Richard Rose at 8 p.m. Thursday [Feb 21] Student Union, University of Pittsburgh, and 8 p.m., Feb. 27, Hunt Library, Carnegie Mellon University.

Rose is the founder of the Pyramid Zen Society which has four college chapters in the Tri-State. The group employs meditation and confrontation techniques taken from Zen Buddhism and the Gurdjieff-Ouspensky system.

Link at Google News -- Paper says 1974 but Google says 1975

[note, there are two Pyramid Zen articles on this page]

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1129&dat=19750215&id=d8tRAAAAIBAJ&sjid=im0DAAAAIBAJ&pg=7096,1836781

Notes

3 files = 31 min, 31 min, 16 min One file has date of Feb 6, not Feb 27, but Feb 6, 1975 was the date of a talk at Kent State. File 1 starts in middle of talk. Either missing one or they’re out of ouder. Audio horrible even with headset Auto AI transcription Dec 3, 2024

Transcription

File dm1

Total time 31:27

dm1-00:00

Rose: They may spiritual. Every rich spiritual person is a lot of poorest spiritual people. This is the figure I consider the human figure, the emblem symbol, the humanity. Also the three corners means the three-fold law, if you follow. These are little, I might say, tricks or hints or help. But the three-fold law was laid down by Christ and Buddha first. There's The way the truth and the light or the Buddha, the Dharma, and the Sangha, they're synonymous. Meaning you work in the truth. You become the truth as fast as possible. But you also have a discipline. You also have an association, colleagues, whether you're a scientist or an esoteric surgeon. It's good if you have poly. Yes?

dm1-00:55

Q: Spiritual, good with finding that You got some that kept someone else in the dead. I don't know.

dm1-01:10

Rose: I don't believe that because I've heard this. This is it. This is a Gurgetian theory, those of you saying it was Gurget. He started a group that functioned or flourished pretty much during World War I. He claimed the reason that they were flourishing was because the people were being murdered or killed in large numbers on the battlefield, and their intelligence quantum is being released into the atmosphere, and it could be taken in by other people. Now, there's quite a few people who believe that this thing can be absorbed. It's an intelligence quantum. It's only so much. There's only so much available. Well, maybe so. I don't know where to get these ideas from, but that has been held for it. But I believe that what a person reaches is essence. Whereas you can't tap it when you get there, tap it and run a pipe back here and perform miracles with That's what a lot of people think, that a lot of heating and this thing comes from divine energy. It comes from basically human quantum energy. If you're playing with a Nobu Chen, someone who is healer, who had no faith except they can do it, then they do it.

dm1-02:17

Rose: The idea of taking something from somebody else, I don't think any more than a millionaire takes the people working in the factory, because without that entrepreneur, there's there's not going to be any factory or workers. So he's just as much a slave as the other at all. Maybe he helped us a little.

dm1-02:40

Q: You mentioned before, you had a question that you could not or it was not beneficial to provide your priorities in maintaining your life, if you will, or something like that. When you had your experience, had you up to that point followed, made a priority for yourself that you followed?

dm1-03:09

Rose: Oh, yes, that's why I told you that. I made up my mind that if I even went crazy, if I lost my life in the process, I'd continue.

dm1-03:15

Q: Before that, there was nothing to talk about. You made it a hobby, you got to lead another thing that you liked to go in the industry.

dm1-03:22

Rose: Oh, no. I hope I didn't leave that impression with you because I didn't. I worked as a chemist. That's what I think. I didn't allow it to interfere with my search. I didn't- That's the point in your life, though, that you were in the trial. From the time, I would say it was more or less something I was struck into as a child, because when I went away to a seminary, I was 20 years old. So I had no choice in that, because I was just curious, you might say, and rebellious about certain things. So when I was 21, I made a definite decision and commitment that that's what I was going to do until I found some success. I didn't consider life worth living unless I knew who was living But you weren't concentrating on other things at all.

dm1-04:04

Q: You had your.

dm1-04:07

Rose: No, I had a good work. I had a work, but at the second... I say, All you do, you have to set a party. You still got to work. And you should. You should support yourself. But the idea was that I had a lot of time that I didn't waste, but that way, I had extra time. I went down and bought some books or traveled a bit. I would never work to any place over a year, so I could be free to travel out to the West Coast. I heard there was an eminent speaker out there or somebody that knew something, and I kept myself loose, so to speak, so I could move and look into things. And of course, the extra time was also used for these experimental disciplines. It took up a good bit of the day. Yes.

dm1-04:56

Q: How long did it last? If it didn't last long, what type of state you were in after the end?

dm1-05:05

Rose: I didn't reach Sattori. I didn't consider Sattori because it wasn't while. It lasted for, I don't know, a big part of a day. And it wasn't, wow, it was trauma. It wasn't anything beautiful or ecstatic. Because when you find out that you don't exist in your previous terms and definition, that can be traumatic for the previous perspective. It's not traumatic while you're there, but it's really traumatic as you approach, but you're approaching death. And when you find that you've survived death, you have to come back, because that's seeming me as your destiny or your objective, is to maybe come back and make it available or something like that. I don't really know why they come back. That seems to be sensible sometimes. Excuse me.

dm1-06:01

Q: Is there a difference in that?

dm1-06:03

Rose: Yes, a little. Never quite the same again. You're sent a value of changes. You can't get excited. You can't get excited. I'll see if we get it fast now. Yeah.

dm1-06:20

Q: How do you impression that your business is experiencing the situation. That very thing. Do you experience the fact that you felt that you came to the final goal? Yes. I thought that you came to the final goal with?

dm1-06:40

Rose: Yes. I thought I thought at least to the final goal was possible to live with. In other words, if finding that involves death, there isn't too much further you can go. But I don't consider it the final I don't consider it his goal. I'm not trying to give this view as a goal. I hope not. We're talking about it, and we shouldn't talk about it because, again, it's one of these populations. As far as you're concerned, it's a population. Somebody ask me a question, I'll try to answer honestly. But I considered a point that the conversation about or talking about it won't profit anything. Because if you find symptoms or you're trafficked, then the danger is in mimicking the symptoms, thinking that it'll bring it about. If the goal is not to find any state of mind. The goal is to be relieved of ignorance. The goal is to be free, not to find the treasure. That's the only thing you can hope for. For each man, it's a little different. In result, when you describe it, it may sound the same, but the paths, the circumstances, and everything are a little different. Each vehicle is a little different.

dm1-07:56

Rose: It's precarious. Yes.

dm1-07:59

Q: Do you find that it's hard to be able to the point of view of the reality.

dm1-08:10

Rose: To be accurate? Oh, absolutely. In fact, one of the first thoughts, things went through my head was suicide. I don't particularly care to get back in this. Then after you survive that in both, everything takes on a certain toleration of absurdities. Everyone looks like they're automatons moving about. The wild movements, the passion, the ambitions of these people seem to be comics. It's a long time before you get back to compassion again. Identify with them, a fellow sufferer. That's what I mean. It seems like a picture show.

dm1-08:59

Q: Are you married?

dm1-09:00

Rose: Yes.

dm1-09:01

Q: Do you think it would fall to your age? Or Yes, absolutely.

dm1-09:25

Rose: But I managed to get hatched three children before both of us discovered that it was impossible to communicate.

dm1-09:35

Q: I got married the year after it came back.

dm1-09:42

Rose: I thought I was 32. I was 32 when I got married. I kept my mouth shut, in other words. Pretended I wasn't a zombie. Are you still 32? I'm getting I am not searching. No.

dm1-10:06

Q: Is there a communication that is possible?

dm1-10:08

Rose: What? Is there a communication that is possible? Between people? Oh, sure. Between speakers? I think you communicate with people that have gone down a similar path. The only thing is that, lots of times, we have business contacts and social contacts that aren't on the path. So they have no knowledge of what you're talking about or your motivation. That's what they say. You find the wiser thing to just not say anything. I used to be in the contracting business, and I found a good way to lose contracts by talking philosophy. You just play the game. If you're coming back on stage, you play your part out. That's all. If you don't play it out, well, then you might as well check out because it becomes uncomfortable. We're all parties.

dm1-11:11

Q: Jordan. Well, you see, I believe that's true. You can't get to quit certain people. They don't know what you're talking about. You can't help them. And if anything, you're in trouble. And I At the same time, we are not alone. Never should we feel that you're alone. There are people that we can't get in trouble.

dm1-11:39

Rose: Sure.

dm1-11:40

Q: And the mining staff is part of our search, because we are in the areas where we need each other. And how much they want a packing, it's like one way. Well, our packing is for I really think that I have demonstrated that.

dm1-12:05

Rose: Because that's the one reason I wrote the book. Years before I thought I was writing. And it was even still further that I ever thought I could transmit anything. You don't do this. When it comes to any real message, you're not going to do it with words. But I took notes, you might say, for about 20 years. I never tried to talk all the time to people I knew, people I knew as philosophic equations and that thing. But we went to a whole little group meeting, Jantin, me, Akrona High, labels, but nothing ever much came with a just a social thing, because, again, the language wasn't there. It was a philosophy. Everybody is meant to be an eternal people. Everybody talks in slightly different languages, and everybody's done. They're already saved. They're trying to convert you to their church. It's very difficult to talk to that type of person. To tell them, Hey, there may be an ultimate realization that might be very valuable. You can only talk to the people who have developed a set of ears. People can only read that have eyes. So your message cannot be directed to everybody. But yet I tried to write a book that everybody could understand.

dm1-13:21

Rose: Now, of course, it might be meaningful to some, it might be provocative to others. I think it has provoked a few I would say that all of this even open mind is due to something we don't understand.

dm1-13:42

Q: That doesn't necessarily mean that we should move it out.

dm1-13:45

Rose: Yes.

dm1-13:48

Q: Because the trouble is to manage.

dm1-13:53 Rose: Well, there's a problem. Each one of these things has a means to a company, too.

dm1-13:59

Q: I know. They're all talking about the same thing, and I realized you're rushing.

dm1-14:04

Rose: I know that. That's the reason I don't believe. I think it's a bad thing. In other words, one of the things that I'm a little afraid of when I have these talks is that someone's going to come in that's just maybe reached a certain realization, like salvationism. Before that, they were down in a snake pen, and they come up out and they got this salvationism. Now, here's a guy saying, Hey, this is something else. This is all going to protest. I I don't want to even answer him. I hope he stays right where he's at because he's happy and he's where he's supposed to be. Consequently, it's maybe good that he doesn't understand, or it's good that we don't. At least we lose that tolerance of each other and leave it there. I believe we're all loved for degrees of understanding, for a second. In other words, we can't put 5 pounds in a 2-pound bag, necessarily.

dm1-14:56

Q: Well, do you think of the experience that has ever been made? I believe that's true, too.

dm1-15:04

Rose: Some people do. Some people reach. And I find this... I believe there's a tremendous lot of older people that have realizations of different strengths and deep convictions. They never communicate them because they are met with... They're about to say, Oh, you're out of your head. That's all. So they just keep quiet. And be sure of that. Yes. What's that question about fear? Why? Why could you do what you think about it? Of fear? I can't think of a thing. It's a hang-up the same as an ego. That's all. You shouldn't be afraid to try. Other than that, I think it's an equivalent of an It's a hindrance to anything you're trying to do, whether it's, again, trying to achieve a physical objective or a transcendental objective. Of course, it's worn out of caution. We're implanted in each entity to protect it. But sometimes we develop a habit of fear.

dm1-16:25

Q: What do you propose the measures that you have to be in the keeping us in ignorance?

dm1-16:31

Rose: Well, we really don't know if nature is keeping us in ignorance. We're just not responding better. But I do believe that the natural plan of things... I believe that the natural plan of things allows, as I said, many people, just by growing old, get wise. That's part of the plan of nature. It's a automatic surrender. As a person gets older, he says, Hey, I was kidding myself when I was younger. I was all on file with this ambition or this idea that I was going to have the best in life, and I see there is no best in life. He settles down and dies greenly, so to speak. This is nature's spirituality. But by the same token, if you try to become aware of this before you become senile or they have hardening the arteries or so, so if you can do some work along that line, then you have to do a little studying about what nature what he was doing to you. I think, again, that nature and spiritual search or symbiotic is just that it looks bad, and they look mighty incompatible. I think, of course, this was a mistake made by a lot of religions in previous times.

dm1-17:50

Rose: Some of them had a head-on clash with nature. As I said, I used to say the head was of God and the below the belt was the devil. And they were continually chained like a scusophoena to a split direction. Everything that was And people had to be opposed, and humanity become almost sick with the dichotomy.

dm1-18:24

Q: After your experience, did anything you learned after help you understand the West River?

dm1-18:33

Rose: No. The only thing that helped me after that, I continued to learn. But what I continued to learn is how to talk to people. I had no knowledge that I could communicate this. In fact, I just gave up on it. I just thought, no, there's no chance to try and talk with it. I didn't encounter anybody else with his experience at that time. The first thing that prompted me to try to talk to people is that a minister's wife and student girl gave me a book it caused me conscious. It's by Richard Bucky. And I read it and I thought, Well, now this guy can write about it, and it's that he made it that clear. It's possible that I, too, can write down an experience and say, Here's how it happened. And that was the beginning. Yes.

dm1-19:18

Q: Part of that, though, is when you pick up a book, and it rings a bell. It makes sense. The other man is seated the same way.

dm1-19:35

Rose: Yes, you can.

dm1-19:38

Q: That would indicate, I think, that we were ready at that point to accept it, whereas maybe that's what we're at, maybe 10 years prior, he read the second book, we had decided to go through.

dm1-19:50

Rose: Oh, yeah. Well, that was written at the turn of the century, and I went to work with Barry because I'd been in the library looking. It's now coming out again. This happened to be a hardback cover, and now it's been paperback. That's publication of it. At that time, it was very rare to look to find. But this is true. It's people who have. But the thing is, what occurred then, and you probably know this yourself because you and I are about the same age, is how far did you go between people? There's no possibility 30, 40 years ago, a meeting like this. The only place you met were in organizedism or churches. There It was impossible to bring just people who were curious or sundry speakers or philosophers together. They didn't exist. That's all. There was almost a taboo on that type of search. So that applied to the book. There was no demand I'll read the book.

dm1-20:46

Q: It's a great need for the book.. More and more people to become more and more aware But I was at Furns, a business for help.

dm1-21:03

Rose: I know. That's what I just... Last night, I was in Kent talking. In case I look like I'm tired, I am. Because every night this week, I was giving a lecture someplace, and sitting up front with a lady about 70 years of age. She came up and introduced herself at the lecture, and I said, It's good to see you here because there's so few people your age to attend these lectures. She said, I'll tell you why, because they don't like to be shaken up. In other words, they grew up in a time when the dream was accepted, and anything that didn't harmonize with that dream, they just got in the habit of rejecting it. That's a lot of investigation. But I do hope that regardless of what level people are on, that they do start questioning a little bit and looking. Not for the idea of throwing rocks against me. Somebody else is winded. They're just saying, Well, let's find our colleagues, whatever level they're on, and see what we can do together. And maybe something better will happen.

dm1-22:04

Q: Is there a response about the majority of the older people, does it be the same thing as the majority of the younger people?

dm1-22:12

Rose: Oh, that's true. But the thing is that the majority of our groups are younger people. That's what's significant. Whereas before, well, for instance, when I was in college, you had people who would sit around once in a while and talk about Cinoza or Freud or something of that sort. But there was no knowledge, no inclination to investigate us, the church matters. Because everybody was coming out of the depression, and everybody was concentrating all their energy on getting an education, they would give them a teacher certificate or something to get a job. They were devoting all their energy to that, and they were highly materialistic. Things like in a depression, you get more materialistic than otherwise. You think that's when people turn to some religious goals, but they don't. They generally turn to religious goals in wartime.

dm1-23:07

Q: What do you think women see when they turn to the military?

dm1-23:11

Rose: Well, I think, of course, that I think there's a change. For instance, Richard Bucky says that there's only one in a million. He draws statistics. I don't know how you get them, but he says only one in a million people will reach this state. He says more that will reach the lower state, but there's only a million because of evolution, that there's only that many evolving that are capable of taking on that flow. I think that he was speaking of the statistics of the turn of the century or prior to that when he experienced. I think that there's an increase in capacity, the main reason. And another thing is, I think 50 % of the people that are interested interested in esoteric matters have taken drugs. That the drug pops the head open just to crack and says, Here's a dimension you hadn't thought about before. Before, it was all stark materialism. You're going to grow old, you're going to die, that's it. They're going to bury you. There's nothing after it. All the evidence points in that direction. Everybody rushed out to college or wherever they're going, got a job, and tried to become successful before that termination came about.

dm1-24:30

Rose: Now, today, and the reason I'm saying this is because I know the case histories of everybody in our group. At least 50% of them have had an LRFD experience or a pot or something like that. This gives them a subtle intuition, if not an actual vision of a dimension. Immediately, it has to follow that if there is another dimension in this, it's possible that we can continue in that other dimension at the depth of this body. I mean, I believe this is what if it's not in the conscious minds of people, it's at least in their intuition. So they start looking. And then, of course, they follow this almost definite pattern that is followed. First is a title like Castaneda, the fellow who actually says, yes, the drug is a magical thing, and we'll show you how to open the door a little wider. Or it's the fellow like Walsh. Walsh used to be very popular back in the beatnik days. Saying that there are techniques, there is a thing called Zen that will bring you to a realization of sorts. Of course, I think he chopped it up a bit. He didn't come out with any definite system.

dm1-25:43

Rose: He came out with certain resolutions about no mind or a state of impossibility. But this is the main reason I believe it occurred. Another thing, too, is all wisdom is thought about by tension. All growth is thought about by tension? All education. Unless you submit yourself to tension, you don't go through school. You don't accomplish anything. After you get through school, if you want to become famous or wealthy in business, successful in business, you still apply tension. You keep applying tension until you have a heart attack and drop dead, or you're all free to be outside. Consequently, I believe that the young people today are under tension that is far greater than I experience just worrying about the depression. There's a tremendous amount of constant tension. There's no hope. There was always a hope that depression would end. But today, there's always another danger on the horizon, a threat that you're not going to survive your 20th You know, by virtue of maybe having to go to war or getting too gas and driving your motorcycle off a cliff or whatever it is. The statistics show that there's a lot of young people dying, whether it's in war or otherwise.

dm1-26:59

Rose: They're still They're getting bumped off, and there doesn't seem to be any social solution. So this keeps attention applied. And this attention may provoke tremendous political figures, or it may produce tremendous spiritual figures. Well, depending on which way they look for the solution. That's why they got it. Yes, over here.

dm1-27:21

Q: When you said about drugs, you have to make earlier, you haven't taken drugs. Maybe you should take an LST.

dm1-27:29

Rose: No, we were just talking about the. I maintain, if you have never taken drugs, take somebody else's word for it. Just say, Okay, whatever experience you have is all right, but I'll get it later. Because I don't think it's necessary. I'm just saying that may be, may be, accidentally, what's the vote for people to think a little further. But I feel that their intellect should tempt them more than the drugs.

dm1-27:52

Q: I think all the projects are very people that want to come in and hear about them. They have been it, and they go to that and take it. Someone who has not been in experience with them for before.

dm1-28:10

Rose: How do you tell me? Well, you can't. This is The reason I went through this little talk about green space, that in meditation, when you start to do self-analysis, if you want to call it that, or meditation, you'll get into this observation. You'll see yourself in the past, in the present. In the past, you'll see where you did project him. Like a fellow goes out and he pulls him up with a girl, and he projects his dream on her. She may be ugly, but momentarily, she'll be beautiful. Do you see what I mean? That's a projection. Later, he finds out when the endocrine is burned out of his blood system that she doesn't. The same thing applies to a necessary church clergy or something of that sort. But you surely have encountered them. I remember one time I went into a church. I investigated spiritualism for you every one time. I went and talked to this fellow. They said he had a talent of some sort. He had a congregation waiting. I said, I want to talk to you. I want to know what you're doing and what conclusions you've come to. And that's what I'm saying.

dm1-29:20

Rose: I could hear that there was a young girl sitting out in the church, didn't hold anymore in this room. They were sitting out in the front road waiting for the service at the beginning. I asked to begin, and I heard them say, Oh, yes, last night, I'm sure grandpa visited me. And the other said, oh, yes. And I talked to my aunt so and so. And I left, of course, with a conviction that these little children, because they were in that church, were projecting. They were dreaming of Santa Claus. I have seen a heard in cases. People I knew, of course, they were relatives, but they said they'd see Jesus. And he always looked like he did on the calendar. I always thought that he was an ugly Jewish fellow. He would never look like he wasn't. He was on an Anglo-Saxon Jalon. He was ugly because he was burned out. He healed too many people. But withdrawing a composite from where he came, where part of country he came from, he wouldn't have looked, I don't think, like they had. They went to count it. But this is what they see in the middle of the night.

dm1-30:35

Rose: Jesus comes to them and says, Hey, I heard your prayers. In other words.

File dm2

dm2-00:00

Rose: So I believe that one of the characteristics of the Firmid Sin Society is that we believe in action, fighting as necessary as in, I don't mean physically fighting, but fighting with energy to attain an end, using all of our energy, making it a prime purpose, not a secondary purpose. Because if you want to accomplish things, you can't just say, well, I'm going to give it one % of my time and 1% of my energy. You have to dedicate yourself to it. The other is that we function on the will to meaning. That is that we exercise that and use it. In other words, we maintain that this is our prime purpose is to discover our real meaning. It's not to just float like a feather or to get to the point where nothing matters or something of that sort. I think it And you may arrive at that point. If you reach an enlightenment, you may arrive at the point where something seems to matter, but nevertheless, you'll still eat. And if you don't eat, they'll bury you. So something does matter. So I think that everybody wants to know. This is what I talk about, the will of the meeting.

dm2-01:22

Rose: I don't believe that this is for the elect alone, although Although I believe that only the elect participated. We were talking about this over to the DAE this morning. It's all in the back room. Was it in the back room or was it on TV? I said, You're not going to have many. Do you want many candidates? Do you want many people? You didn't hear that? I'm not sure. That must have been in the back room when I was talking to the Gail. His name, Heinz? Heinz? Is that his name? Hein? Hein? Is that his name? Hein? Linheis. He said, Are you looking for a lot of converts? I said, No, I'm not looking for a lot of converts because, according to Bucky, if you read Bucky's Cause, Me, Consciousness, there's only one in a million in the first place are capable of doing this work. And that is a receiving. That's his average when he wrote that book. I think they've gone up a little because there's more spiritual movement on more or more people interested in spiritual things. But the percentages of the population If it's one in a million, it means that in the United States, you're going to have 200 people with a retained enlightenment, 200 million.

dm2-02:37

Rose: So if you have those odds, then you can more or less see the odds by talking to people around you and finding out how many are actually interested. People are interested in what I call gimmicks more than they are. They're interested in peace of mind. They're interested in something that makes their business better. And they're interested in something that aids their compatibility and things like that, to get along with people and flow and all get down to the sewer together. So when you talk to them about finding an ultimate answer, even though they realize that some of the present answers given to humanity are rather hypocritical. They're like fairytales told to children. They'll go back to the church and get the fairytales that are told to children and pass their time with that, no matter how intelligent or how intelligent they presume to be. They'll still do that. They'll conform just to avoid effort because they don't seem to be able to fit it in with the various other appetites they have. In other words, they've got to spend so much time making money and so much time making love and so much time in other adventures.

dm2-03:55

Rose: And they say, well, if I have any time left, I'll go. I'll do a little thinking. But they don't take it too seriously. So my belief is that there's not too many people going to get interested in this in the first place. But I've maintained that everybody does want to know who they are. And I found this. I've worked in factories and labor gangs, and then when people were completely unskilled. But eventually, the conversation in all those places got around to, well, what What do you think happens to you? I live in a small town in West Virginia. I had a boy that was a man my age, he was older than me, was before he died. He had a heart attack. He seemed to sense that I had done a little reading or something. He was curious about my opinion. He said, Rose, what do you think happens to you when you die? I didn't answer because I figured I didn't have time to educate. I didn't have time. I was going to read this book and that book and look at this experience and that experience. So I said, Well, I don't know.

dm2-05:07

Rose: What do you think happens? He said, I'm going to tell you what I think. Nothing happens. I had a heart attack, and he said, I passed out, and I remember nothing. But this man had been all his life a hellraiser. He was all up like to drink and hit the bar, the honky-tox. He had no interest at all until he kept fighting for the heart attack. About two or three months later, one of the boys in group thought we were talking to him on the street down there. Two or three months later, while his daughter got married, he was attending his wedding, and he got too much of a drink in the time effectively. Now, for the same token, in October, the 74 readers digested an account of a man who had a heart attack. And if you care if I read it, it's available in the library, is that I died at 10:52, is the name of the article. And in it, he mentioned, he said for 20 minutes or so, and he mentioned an experience which is very similar to the N'Hirbh Kholwa Samadhi experience, or what we call it, light, although he didn't define it as that.

dm2-06:21

Rose: Now, what his background was, where that man was, I think it told in the article what he did. He was some type of on that. But there's a difference in the two people. Now, this means a number of things. It means, first, possibly, that not all people go to the same place. It means that sometimes if a person lives a certain lifestyle, that he may automatically be raised to a certain level. Whereas the case history, a lot of people who die, just like the heart attack history, he said, oblivion, lengthening, nothing. Another person has a deaf experience. They bring them back, and they talk to Uncle Charlie, or grandpa, or something like that. Their relatives seem to come to get them. Other people, if you're wanting to get into this business of these experiences or magazines that are published strange accounts. I think you get them. And there's medical people writing in their medical journals. If you want to do a little thinking, you'll find that quite a few of them talk about seeing people. None of the excuses mention Jesus Christ, God, Muhammad, Buddha, or anybody. These are personalities that in none of these categories, they either be their relatives, they be the beautiful scenery, sometimes it's geographic configuration that they witnessed.

dm2-07:49

Rose: Sometimes it's like colonies, something of that sort. But you notice with the description of these different types of experiences, that they come from different types of people. So I say this because a lot of the people, we got, as I said, we have the disease called democracy, which we think that all we have to do is vote on which heaven we're going to. We're going to go where everyone else goes. And people sit back on their ores and say, well. We have, as I said, we have system that is basically somehow affiliated with morality. And we have techniques that are somewhat Zen. And in other words, I don't shut any doors. If there's something that will expedite a person's mental process, I'll employ it. I don't go strictly according to Zen procedure, because I didn't come that way myself. Although I do, as Frank said, I was acquainted with two Zen masters, and I met a few besides that, which are pretty efficient masters or not. But I found the Zen method of transmission incomparable as far as where the movements go. But as far as the business of introspection and finding yourself, you can do it on almost any walk of life, while you're attached to any organization, you can be in any church, it doesn't matter.

dm2-09:28

Rose: So Now, with this, unless somebody has a particular field they'd like to have me touch on or describe, I'd like to change the meeting to a dialog. Let me ask one thing before you do, because we've had trouble at different times with people. Last time, I was at the Pit. It's a Pit lecture. I had two or three people that wanted to advertise their own private cult by asking, point But it's a looming question, and they want to make a speech, or they wanted to show how clever they were. So let me say, I'm answering questions in the belief that people are interested in what we are doing. And I'm very happy to spend... What my life is dedicated to answering questions with sincere people about what we're doing or explaining what it takes all my life. But I don't want to waste time in games of pleasure. So if there's any explanation, let's get into it, find out what you're interested in, what level. If you want to talk about it. You said there's different religions, different people, like a doctor who's reached out to me. He was take it out. He's always like all the things.

dm2-11:04

Rose: He's always doing all these holyness, preaching the same. I would say all holy men. See, first of all, when you... Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. First of all, you've got to realize what... Maybe I should have mentioned this, but I know if you haven't all exposed yourself to enough literature on enlightenment to know what it meant, it's difficult to talk about. First of all, it cannot be defined. You can talk about it vaguely, but still vaguely, you'll get a concept of what it is not, perhaps. You can't say what it is because you can't describe an absolute experience with relative work, possibly. But you can approach it, and that's the best we can do. There are several exaltations. The psychologist might refer to these things as exaltation. Sometimes they deny that they exist except as a disease. This guy is sick, frustrated, or he's got an anxiety, so he creates a virtual exaltation. And then that comforts me. He's saving me going to the nut house or sending me to the nut house. But Not all holy men's experiences are enlightenment. For instance, the top two are called Samadhi by Ramana Maharshi. There's a difference between the description disease.

dm2-12:30

Rose: When you get a description of it, there's a difference between the description of those and Satori. There's a difference between the Satori experience and what is known in the Christian faith as salvation. Now, I don't know how many of you are acquainted with the Gertrudeffy and Moussetky's literature? But in the, Gurgip categorized the advance, the philosophic advance of man in four stages. Starting with the instinctive man, the emotional man, intellectual man, philosophic man. When you transcend the philosophic state, you enter into a Samadhi stage, that is a enlightenment stage. So that when you transcend any of these, it's accompanied by an exaltation. So that, for instance, a man practicing half a yoga with no mental capacity, let's say, no IQ, he's just a very primitive type of person, perhaps practicing half a yoga. But by virtue of the fact that he attaches himself maybe emotionally to a physical master or in a Christian faith to Jesus, he overcomes through the application of his emotional nature, the love. He overcomes his instinctive nature. He inhibits his drinking or his sex. He sublimes his energy, and he reaches another level. And then the transition, the exaltation of her, going from one level to another.

dm2-14:08

Rose: Well, you'll always have something instinctively, you always have something emotional in you, but you don't have to go back and identify them. You know what I mean? So then you've gone up, and when you transcend the intellectual level, the emotional level, and you enter the intellectual plane, This is what I call the wild experience, the discovery of the meaning in mathematics. If you're pounding your head to math problems, and then something open up, almost like an instantaneous lighting. This is a wow experience, and this is somewhat parallel to the descriptions we get of some of the schools of the Torre, and they describe it as wow. This is not an enlightenment. An enlightenment lasts for hours and days. This is where you that you take by diagnosing the outward signs of the differences in the type of experience, because all the incidents were profound in the light from the lab for quite a long period of time, anywhere from a hour, several hours, to several, eight or nine days. In which the person is actually unconscious to the world. So the third stage is what they call kivala samadhi in Maharshi's book, Cosmic Consciousness in Buckingham, in which it's marked by still relative things.

dm2-15:29

Rose: The only time there's a way to know when you're in a relative dimension, and that is when there are no... I mean, in an ultimate or absolute dimension, that is when all the relative things fade out, when there are no more relative visions, music, pleasure, bliss. All this stuff is secondary to the final stage. They're relative. When you hear the descriptions of Bucky walking out on his porch and seeing Montreal lit up for the rose-colored light, this was something he saw with his sensors. So this was a feeling he had in his body, a thrill in his body, and a peace. That's what it meant. So he had- Or he wasn't- No, he had moved beyond the story. He had reached what they call Kivala Samadhi, Kivala Nervo Kholpa Samadhi, or cosmic conscience, or the divine ecstasy, some of the Christie mythic, you call it the divine ecstasy. But when you go into Sahadji Samadhi, then, of course, there are no There's nothing that you can describe in a relative manner. There's no relative things happen to you. There's no knowledge of witnessing of light. In fact, it's mostly a union with nothingness. That's improper to say that because you have to immediately say that everything is, too.

dm2-16:49

Rose: But nevertheless, you have that impression of knowing both nothingness and everything. But Ramana Mahashi gives the best description of it, that the Kizalini The final Samadhi is like a rope, a bucket in the bottom of a well with a rope tied to the windward, so it can be drawn out. In other words, the mind is sunk in a certain ecstasy or experience, but it can be returned back to the body, back to the function. It can do it repeatedly. You can lower that bucket up and down almost whenever you want to go into that type of experience. But with the Sahadji, the final Samadhi, there's no return. In other words, you can't go in and out of it as well. Now, You may read books on it, but I advise you to read from the federal authority. As well people think that the advertisements you get on some of these flyers of the cult, different cults putting it out. Is it for Christ to put you in a position where you could plug in now? This will with the non-sense, because you don't float in and out of death with impunity. You pay a price every time you go into the death experience.

dm2-17:55

Rose: Yes. Yes, it's very traumatic going in, very traumatic coming out. And as a haji Samadhi, he likens to a river flowing into the ocean, and his identity is lost. So you can't take the river back out of the ocean. You can draw the bucket back up by the well, but you can't pull the river back out of the ocean. You became one with everything. And you come back and get a job and pay your nickel for a burger. Mountains once more become mountains and hills, valleys, once more become valleys. Yes. I guess there's a thousand and thousands of information before money came before money came.

dm2-18:38

Q: Where did the court start? It was in between the week before money came. When you die, whatever you expect to happen, what happens?

dm2-18:51

Rose: Well, in the first place, you're presuming that you got the incarnation. You can't start into this path with this path with this information. You can't start into this path with this information. You can't start into this path with this information. Because you can't prove them. And this is what a lot of people are doing. If you believe in reincarnation, then you've got an infinite number of chances ahead. But you don't know that for sure. That could be a placebo you're feeding yourself.

dm2-19:11

Q: What is the answer?

dm2-19:12

Rose: You don't take the favor Right. You don't populate anything. When you talk about reincarnation, you're postulating because it hasn't been proven, it hasn't been established.

dm2-19:22

Q: I'm just saying that you don't know. We need to leave it open.

dm2-19:28

Rose: Yes, you should. It's all right to employ with things tentatively and examine them and dig into them, and that's all they... But not to win something with a conviction that you're going to have ultimate chances.

dm2-19:40

Q: Well, then it would be like what? You have the extremity of things.

dm2-19:43

Rose: Therefore... Right. That's what that happens. There's a whole dogma built up in and then become right back where you start from. Like I said many times, people will... Young people, for instance, they're deserting the native Christian religion in droves and saying, This is unreasonable. This is foolish. This business of heaven and hell. And I see them going to these various gurus and movements from overseas and adopting the same type of religion by the millions, or at least by the thousands or hundreds of thousands. They're adopting religions that give them fairytales, no validity. In other words, they believe this and dance on one foot, and it'll be the same thing as burning a candle in the church for the sins of the deposed, the death. What it amounts to is people have a certain capacity, and they're going to only function in a type of religion that responds to their capacity. That's all. Are you familiar with Christian religion? Oh, yes.

dm2-20:55

Q: I remember saying a lot of people were saying that we were very much I don't know.

dm2-21:12

Rose: I'll be honest with you. I can't Krishnamerde does a lot of writing and a lot of luxury, but he doesn't give a system. I think it doesn't- That is what he's always saying. Well, I don't think that there's a universal blueprint that you can lay down. I think it's highly individualized. Each person does it more or less in his own tone, so to speak. But there's no point in talking. I can't see the point in talking unless you have something to offer, so to speak. Now, don't get the idea that I don't think Richard Murdie is an enlightened man. My observations from his life, from observing over a period of lifetime, not from what he was made. I watched his lifestyle, and I watched him do certain things that I thought that he had done as a result of a profound knowledge of what life was all about. Now, the ability to communicate this is the other thing. I lose patience with too many words and too much of saying, well, if you do this, the world is right. And if a person reaches this stage, that's the haji Samadhi stage, they know that the world doesn't exist as we see it now.

dm2-22:30

Rose: So what should he care about politics? Will he get along with your neighbor or with the people over in another country or not if that doesn't exist? This is a show. This is a stage show, basically. And he realizes that, too. It's sometimes talks about it. And he always gets back to this thing of be nice. It doesn't matter whether you're nice or not. It matters whether you get your objective.

dm2-22:54

Q: That's what I say, that you can't listen to anybody. He does say you can't even go through the Well, this is true.

dm2-23:02

Rose: And I say that, too. I don't say- And the whole thing is you just have to accept crying about it. Sure you do. But you still have to... There's a paradox involved in that. You still have to work in a group of people because you drip. If each man tries to do it by himself, he goes home and he gets a few beers and a few more beers, or he gets off on a tangent, he says, Oh, yeah, I'll get back to that next week. Then you'll get back to it next And then, Oh, well, when I retire at the age of 65, I got plenty of time to deal with that. And the result is for that time, his head's too hard to do any progressive thinking. He's crystallized. And that's the way nature intended it. Nature does not intend for people to become enlightened. Nature intends for them to form a natural function and turnover like the saw it. To have a natural turnover. Somebody over there. She had her Yes. What's your impression of the fairytales and the fairytales? Well, because basically, sin doesn't populate. When I speak of the fairytales, that might be rather abrupt because there are a lot of good people coming out of these various religions.

dm2-24:17

Rose: But anything that postulates a whole category of, let's say, sins, penalty, punishment, delight, favors of the God, life, things that the God to burn, that thing. Zen has no God, no personality, no dogma, no doctrine. Zen says, only one thing. Look at yourself and see who you are. And through that process, you'll find everything. Well, you'd have to... Then to do that, you'd have to for me to explain it. I couldn't explain it in five minutes. I'd say, you should come to the group occasionally and talk to the other people in the group and see the system they have and maybe read some of the literature on it. But it's basically one of going within in the true fashion. We have, as I said, a system of fighting, not one of dreaming or lapsing into It's a piece of mind. This meditation that I advise is not one like TM, in which you become tranquil. Do you think that this tranquility is going to take you to an absolute state? They talk about this, but this is not true. It will not take you there because you go to sleep. I know from personal experience, that's the reason I'm sitting here, is because I went through seven years of tranquil meditation.

dm2-25:36

Rose: The only thing happened was all my hair fell off. I come to the conclusion, I better get off of this tranquility. It was seven years of beautiful living. I didn't have any hang up. I had no headaches, so to speak. I enjoyed it, but I might as well have been smoking pot for seven years. I heard you say before that you wanted it became important to you to communicate your experience to those people. I just wondered why it was important. Well, it's not important for me to communicate my experience. It's important for me to communicate the conviction that people do want to know who they are. But as far as trying to communicate my experience, I'd rather not communicate it. It's impossible when you get into it. This is what we run into in the last lecture. Some fellows just seem to be dying to know the definition for enlightenment. And I said, I can't give it to you. They're saying, was saying, Was it like this? Was it like that? Or when did it happen? Tell me about it. And I said, No, because first of all, if you're looking for a spiritual experience, if you're supposed to think, even there's a hint that you might go through some type of experience, and you picture it or try to visualize it, or try to diagnose it, or analyze it, you will create it mentally.

dm2-27:05

Rose: Then your hunger will get so intense that you'll project it, and then you'll come back and say, I have it. And what you'll have is a projection. The things should not be anticipated. The things should be spontaneously in the sense. So when people start giving you definitions of these things, then you're... Or by last name, not definition, but symptoms. When you get into this definition, you get into symptoms. What happens five minutes before? How do you feel? And what What happens to your head? And what do you see? And all that thing. Then they'll start to visualize this, and they get hungry now. So it's not good. The only thing that we must hold, real concentrate into our head is the fact that we don't know who we are, and we must find out. And this process, when you find out who you are, you can't find it out without finding out who everyone else is. That answers all the questions. Now, I mean, on the back there. This is what you said, that you would be able to take more than by yourself. Have you been able to explain this with your character? I've had you been able to still function.

dm2-28:24

Rose: You mean to keep a job? In place. You have to function. You have to. You have to. This is the point. We're not monastic. You have to keep a job. If you go to school, in any case, you have to function as your profession. You may have to get married if you are in the wrong place at the wrong time. And in that case, you may have to stay with the bargain. Keep your share of the bargain. And whatever it is, though, you have to put your priority first. Your spiritual nature should be your first priority in all these cases. And if it is, you can still attain, unless you're overindulged or something like that, lose your priority. That's what it would be if you made something else more important. Or if you made the spiritual search your priority to track a quart of food today. You wouldn't find anything because you'd be unconscious. And you would be just rationalizing if you still had a priority. But you can, you have to live. I maintain that they're If you were to go into a monastery in which some Zen monks would be giving you a koan every day or every year.

dm2-29:36

Rose: You would be getting your koan from your association with society. You'll be getting them all the time. And society will be holding mirrors up to you and say, Look at your egos. The egos are not so prevalent. You can put on a good act in a monitor.

dm2-29:54

Q: You said the nature did not end up so likely, but still the nature.

dm2-29:59

Rose: It's manifested that we're here to, as they said in, what was it, the merchant of Venice, nature's a stage. We're here for some projected play. Manifestly, we're here to enrich the planet. That seems to be the big thing. Virgil suggested we might even be here to create another planet with this enormous amount. Baby, walk on a wild ride. The reason I say that nature didn't intend for us to do this is because when we take the natural path, we immediately bear away from any serious philosophic or esoteric religious path.

dm2-30:44

Q: Don't you think that's really a ploy, or almost a ploy of extremity? I. s

File dm3

dm3-00:01

Rose: What is it? What is it? What is the answer? Basically, it's the answer for what you are and what you'll be. And of course, this is, again, we're using words because what you will be is what you are. You're only finding out what you are internally. It answers the question, in which I presume everybody wants to know is what's going to happen after you die. Of course, when you discover the answer, you may discover that you're not going to die. You may take off some of the stage calls that come along the game. When the act ends, you may take off some stage props, but you may discover that you're not going to die. No, this is what I said before. It's impossible to learn. When you talk about understanding, you talk about learning. Now, of course, in the loose sense, maybe what you're thinking is true. If you're talking about being aware of with utter conviction, but not with wisdom. In other words, you learn that knowledge will not take you there. You will not have knowledge when you get there. You will not have something that you can verbalize. And the whole system of knowledge That really takes you away from it in the analysis.

dm3-01:32

Rose: But this is the only system we have to work with. So this is a paradox. Incidentally, this is one of the things you also learn on the road is that the paradox permeates every step. And as soon as you say something is bad, you have to question if it isn't all so good.. I didn't follow you. Yes. Well, you mean that you may not know whether you're in the right direction, is that what you're saying? Whatever it is you're trying to do, whatever it is you're trying to do. Well, yes. Of course, I don't think you can instantly apply it and understand the application. You can't just say, Well, everything I do say that the paradox is in every major step, a decision making. So that if you, for instance, a person says, Well, I want to follow this certain path. First of all, the path may be erroneous. The whole thing may be a rationalization, not a true path. If it is, let's presume it is a true path, then it's possible that there are others that it's true. It's not the only true path. It's possible that you may or may not profit by it.

dm3-03:01

Rose: And this is where the paradox is. In other words, the things on that path that would seem beneficial may not be beneficial, and the things that seem detrimental may be beneficial. That's what I'm talking about, the paradox. Well, here has a tragedy in family. I'd like to show you a case of a fellow that we met in Akron High, the most outstanding case I've encountered with the lightening. And he The more he got into it, he had trouble. He was been aggriated in World War II and bombed Japan, and it disturbed him, to say the least. The army had to get rid of him because he was a hazard. He started praying in public. He believed that God is good to fall in the spiral, and God is somehow allowed a bomb to fall. When the sparrow comes down, there's a bomb, there's a lot of people. Being a devout Christian, he said, I have to have the answer. He began praying. He went to the Bible, and the Bible says, The Lord's Prayer. He said, The Lord's Prayer, over and over and over, and he analyzed it, meditated on everything else. The more he meditated, the more trouble he was.

dm3-04:05

Rose: He lost his family, the 30-mile of the Air Force. Then next thing, he went back to Texas, and his wife said, Get out. He wasn't working enough to see it. The children disowned him. He wasn't working enough to see. He in the building. He said he had a job in an automobile dealership in Dallas, and the stuff just kept picking the fan. But he put his head down on the desk and prayed for God to kill him. I went out. If I don't have an answer, kill me. Get me out of here. I don't care to live in this mess. He carried him to hospital. He was paralyzed. Something happened to him. They had to carry him away. But he experienced it. He's lingered in an incident for at least a week. I heard his account when he came up to Akron. This was part of it. At that time, he was so full of despair that the Lord's prayer was ever going to do anything for him. Because every time he said the Lord's prayer, he lost one of his relatives. His wife furied him out, or his kids furied him out, or somebody rebutt him.

dm3-05:05

Q: ??? It deepened his tension. It was a trauma deepened his tension. The bow soon got tighter. I'm going to finally let loose. See what's the whole way. So that's the paradox. It's the individual low incidences. It's being paradoxical. You could go along. Yes.

dm3-05:36

Q: Is it one of the problems in mankind, that we have put it like, coming up on the morphologies of the I see on the birth of that place? That's symptoms that, well, it may be something real with you.

dm3-05:54 Q: Then I noticed a big political of people in the book itself. He said, already, he's begun to disassemble.

dm3-06:00

Q: What's the conclusion that this program is going to be followed?

dm3-06:06

Rose: Well, the thing... Years ago, I got into a movement that was based in India called the Rata Thwami sect. They have an interesting little doctrine. It involved the fellow called Kau. I always remembered it. We hear so much about the devil, but the devil seems to be an insidious character. This outfit just wreck things. Whereas he may be constructive. There may be a symbiotic relationship for all we know if it's a real entity. But this fellow, Kau, was actually given charge of three lower dimensions. He might say like the physical, the Ashto, or the Kairos, or something like that. They had the Hindu name for it, but I can't remember them. But he was given dominion over these three dimensions. It was his job to confound all philosophic and religious churches. So that as soon as a church was born in which there was a Messiah came up and start preaching the truth, he infiltrated it immediately and confounded it with that. He made the preacher got rich or he became powerful or his followers, after he died, turned it into a racket. So that all of man's efforts were thus frustrated so that these people would reincarnate and stay on this planet.

dm3-07:26

Rose: Now, that's a story. But it just gives you an idea of what some eminent men, thinkers, yogis thought was the cause because it was so evident. When you get to thinking about it, why do not the heavens respond when a man pray? He says, Hey, give me the truth. That's all I want. I don't want to run a racket. Just give me the truth. But no answer is going to be. It seems like there's some natural scheme keeping from learning. And of course, I don't know that that's true, but I do know that the That little story explains a lot of disappointment. And it's rather apt in the fact that all of the institutions do become, what do you call it, commercialized or talk to people.

dm3-08:17

Rose: We talked about something that keeps us from learning. I just wanted to make it so we keep our thoughts, starting by, let's say, read a book. We keep ourselves learning by buying We read a book, we listen to a teacher, we take in information from outside and accept it. Whereas, in other words, we went too far. What we should be doing is think of it as food for fun. We're going to call it food for fun. We're still asking for stuff. We don't accept anything unless we've worked out.

dm3-08:59

Rose: That's right.

dm3-09:01

Q: That's the way we don't get married under much care.

dm3-09:03

Rose: That's exactly what I recommend. That's the thing I say. I even say, Don't believe me. Here, maybe my life is a little story like that one about the Rada Swamish. Maybe it'll help. But don't say, Hey, this guy found a certain strength. I'm going to hang on that guy's coat there. No, you go through whatever thinking process, whatever years of evaluation are necessary for yourself. And if Whatever the choice is, it's best for you. And then the response to your ability to sort the garbage from that.

dm3-09:41

Q: To add to that, I would think that the order of this question for a prior work is a good word to be clarity. That would be number one. That would be to be clear. We don't understand it, and we don't judge it.

dm3-10:02

Rose: Yeah, there's many things that cause us to rationalize in favor of a certain thing. If it's an appeal, this is what I'm afraid happens with a lot of things is a person says, Well, I don't want that. You know, I'll say to my son, I don't know, I'm part of that church because that denies me this particular appetite that I have. Another fellow might join a church that gives you twelve wives. Oh, that sounds reasonable. But the knowing that there's something inside yourself that qualifies all your computations.

dm3-10:36

Q:  ?? I'm not even saying it's always about you could be thinking here, taking through it, that either. I don't think it's Is there anything about wanting to understand emotions, or the way to understand all these other factors.

dm3-10:49

Rose: Oh, no. The thing is, that's in the book. If you mention it, I'll enlarge upon it, but I don't say anything. That's what occurs to me. Is that in your balance? No, it is important. This is the one thing. I'd say 50% of the path that I recommend has to do with first developing intuition, first knowing the parts that emotions play, the value of emotions and the negative value of emotions. Emotion is not a feeling, it's a value. Feeling can lead to intuition. Feeling can also be the superstition. And of course, I maintain that any true philosophy, there's no slide rule which you could put symbols and factors on a slide rule, come out with an answer. It will eventually be solved by the intuition. But that intuition has to be developed by years and years of mathematical thinking. Or else you become superstitious. It's very much so. Because I believe this is a fundamental part of our system, is the development of intuition, ways and means, the finding an intuition. When any of you get too tired or bored, there's cookies in the back room. I get dry myself. Yes.

dm3-12:11

Q: I think there's a tendency to talk people that could go along and in their search, they're very severe, so on. They make a couple of points in their time, really. But now they know Nobody else. How they can- Stop.

dm3-12:38

Rose: He stopped looking, you mean?

dm3-12:41

Q: Well, yeah. I mean, they call it the.

dm3-12:44

Rose: Yes. Oh, this is the truth. Yes. Well, this is one of the sad things I ran into when I was younger. I would go out and I would go out to run into somebody. Well, California's got a lot of so-called espatory speakers in, but invariably, they'd already anchored themselves. Then they would look down their nose and say, Oh, you'll come around. One fellow believed in incarnation. He said, Rose, why are you so anxious? You We got thousands of reincarnations. Take your time. Enjoy them. But I don't know that for sure. At that time, I said, Hey, you don't know you got another incarnation. You better determine that, certainly. Because this might be the end of the line.

dm3-13:28

Q: He said whatever he said, it didn't make you know.

dm3-13:32

Q: ?? All right. It's like meditation time. Yeah.

dm3-14:08

Q: In pursuing a path, what actually made you feel the person? What change did all this? What actually changes?

dm3-14:21

Rose: Well, I don't think the person really changes. I think what happens is it it is really, let's say, a clarification. It's pulling colored glasses off of the eyes. I think the real self is hidden, in theory. We talk about changing the state of being, but I think the real state of being is unchangeable. But we do have to pull off masks or scales, let's say, from the eyes. This enables us to see clearer and also enables us to see a clearer person. It seems as though we change, too. Of course, that, possibly we do, because previously, we were a creature with scales on our eyes, and now we're a person without scales, and that is what we've changed. I think we might as well break up and I believe if you don't get back there now, it would be too late.

Footnotes

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