1989-0212-Zen-Is-Action-Columbus

Return to list of all Recordings     See all Categories    Spreadsheet: Recordings-Source-List

Metadata repository: https://data.direct-mind.org/

Data Template

Title	1989-0212-Zen-Is-Action-Columbus
Recorded date	February 12, 1989
Location	Columbus
Number of tapes	Two 90 minute cassettes
Other recorders audible?	No
Alternate versions exist?
Source	SN
No. of MP3 files	Four files: 42 min; 42 min; 46 min; 29 min
Total time
Transcription status	SH in process. Part 1 done. First pass only for the rest.
Link to distribution copy	http://distribution.direct-mind.org/ (need password)
Link to PDF	http://distribution.direct-mind.org/ Or try http://selfdefinition.org/rose/
Published in what book?
Published on which website?
Remarks
Audio quality	This particular copy may have come from different sources. Side one is very loud and overmodulated, while side 2 has low audio volume. Side 3 & 4 are normal.
Identifiable voices
URL at direct-mind.org	https://www.direct-mind.org/index.php/1989-0212-Zen-Is-Action-Columbus
	For access to this wiki or the audio files please send an email to: editors@direct-mind.org
Revision timestamp	20150117231531

Notes

4 mp3 files

Audio very clear. Tape 1 (side 1 = 42 minutes; side 2 = 42 minutes) Tape 2 (side 3 = 46 minutes; side 4 = 29 minutes) No other recorders heard

This particular copy may have come from different sources. Side one is very loud and overmodulated, while side 2 has low audio volume. Side 3 & 4 are normal.

Art’s Section Breaks

These are the last sentences of sections 2 through 5 Here's how I've got it separated out, Steve:

end part 2 41:03 That’s it. What are the five most important ones?

end part 3 So don’t be dismayed if you have some unhappy moments. The happy ones are as much as a mirage as the unhappy ones. Only the happy ones are more deadly – they’ll trap you. The unhappy ones only drive you away. 27:53

end part 4 21:49 Q. ?? R. You are getting it. This is as close as you may get. There ain’t too many of us around.

end part 5 01:14 But it seems like – we think that this is necessary – and people talk of discipline – what do you mean by that? There’s no greater discipline than a man who disciplines his own life. He’ll never be much harm to anybody else – because he won’t have reason to; he’s got values. But people who talk about discipline are generally talking about discipline from somebody else. We’re going to educate everybody; everybody’s going to be educated. Another hundred and fifty billion [dollars?] he says.

Topic: Intuition

Side 2 - Has story of Christian Scientist who used intuition re pump, atomic submarine.

Side 2 Says Bob Martin was source of Paul Wood's story about Gettysburg, etc. Story in Akron about onion, soup.

Article on savant idiots: http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/beautiful-minds/2014/02/25/where-do-savant-skills-come-from/

File 1

Forum Part 1

File 1 – 42 minutes.

00:00

Well, I’m a little hoarse, so it might be a good idea if you sit up as close as possible. I don’t know – is this amplified? – Ok.

00:20

Zen, basically, is finding answers, as all philosophical or religious or spiritual work is; finding the answer to self-definition: Who am I? Where am I going? Where did I come from? And people – blissfully or stupidly – lead their lives and never give it a thought, until they’re ready to die. And then they hurry up and pay their dues, thinking that will do it.

00:49

I’m not going to try to explain Zen to you, because Zen is action, not words. But I’m going to read something to you – I’m going to read some questions to you. I’m going to ask you some questions. And I’d like for you to try to pick out the five five of them perhaps that you have an answer for, and we’ll get at them when I get through reading this.

01:30

I don’t know why I’m hoarse – it’s just been that way for about a week, and it doesn’t get any better. so I don’t know whether it will get worse or not [tonight].

01:48

What do you know for sure?

Anybody ever ask you that?

Does a man own a house, or does the house own him?

Does a man have power, or is he overpowered?

Is man a predator, or a victim?

Behind some of these words is a whole philosophy, pro and con.

Does a man enjoy, or is he consumed ? (by that which he thinks he enjoys)

Can a man learn that which he really wishes to, by himself alone?

Why build anthills before knowing what an ant is? (meaning of course houses)

Why do we build conceptual towers of Babel about human thinking before we know what thought is?

How can we dare to define thought before knowing the source and cause of all thought, or the essence of thought?

When we describe bouncing, do we describe the striking object or that which is struck?

03:07

In other words, According to physics, the wall hits the ball as hard as the ball hits the wall

Is thought the process of bouncing, or the object struck?

Everything strikes back with an opposite reactive force.

Can you start thinking?

Can you stop thinking?

Try to stop thinking, first. Because you’re always thinking. Try to stop it. Then, make up your mind before you go to bed what you’re going to start thinking about when you wake up. See if it will work.

Is thought a sort of somatic emanation?

Behavioristic psychology says it’s just a little steam coming off of the body.

Do we think, or are we caused to think?

Meaning, can you stop thinking?

Is negative thinking, as commonly discussed, negative to man, or negative to nature?

In other words, you hear somebody saying a person’s got a negative attitude. Sometimes the people who accuse him have a negative attitude.

Does the brain generate thought like a radio generates a message coming from its speaker?

Is thought limited to the brain?

When a tree bends over, does it create wind by waving its branches?

What are you doing for certain, versus what is done to you?

What is telepathy?

Does thought travel beyond the head?

Does only the head think?

What is the vehicle for thought travel?

04:51

What’s it riding on, out across the space, when you have a telepathic communication?

Does the body manufacture thoughts, or does the body only serve as a conduit?

Where in the body are thoughts received during telepathy?

Where are they sent?

05:11

We don’t seem to be interested. We carry out telepathic experiments but we never bother to go to the root.

Do chemicals such as serotonin and other neurotransmitters create thought?

Or do they merely facilitate the penetration into our consciousness, of strictly sensory data?

Where will the answer to this question lead us? (multi-dimensional contacts)

How many full hours do we spend analyzing our thought processes? Or do we spend any?

Is it important to observe our reactions?

Are we only a body?

05:52

This is the dictum of our present generation. It’s much easier to pretend to cure the body than to cure a mind. So the psychiatrists are strictly body-curers.

In what part of that body is the seat of life?

06:09

We can cut off an arm or leg, or cut out and replace lungs, heart, kidneys and still live. I think that some of the ancient nationalities believed that our soul is in the liver; so if they cut it out, there went his soul. We can have our nervous system severed at the neck, with paralysis except in the head, and still live and think. We can remain unconscious for years while the body continues to live, noting that a person who is brain-dead according to medical instruments can continue to live, breathe, and at times recover and function consciously. Where were they then, during the interim?

Do we think, or imagine that we think?

Is our thinking automatic?

Do not our thoughts come before we have time to replace them?

07:04

Try. Try to replace one.

When we decide to search for the source of thought, why do we become mentally weary, or find our thoughts becoming able to find objective or describable distractions – but unable to describe, name or systematize the progression, origins, or duration of thought processes?

07:29

Is man only a blob of protoplasm which is programmed to react according to a schedule, or is he a free agent? (conditioned reflexes, they say)

Are thoughts likewise only reflexes from programmed or calculated stimuli?

07:44

07:47

I remember reading a snatch from an old Sufi book, the guy had supposed to have written it a thousand years ago, and he said that the greatest enemy that a spiritual person has, or anybody has, is conditioning. And of course that’s the trend of our modern psychology.

Who programmed? Who stimulated?

Can we observe our thoughts?

If we observe our thoughts, who is looking?

That’s serious – when you see your own thoughts, who is looking?

When we observe our thoughts, are we not thinking about thinking?

Is such a thinker someone who dreams of yesterday, thinking that he watches a dreamer?

Or is he a detached watcher of past and present thoughts, who is awake and aware of the mechanical man?

What are we, an animated body in a suppressed, stagnated soul?

Do we have a mind? Are we mind-stuff? Or are we a programmed body and mind?

Do we actually know that which we are doing?

If so, why do we repeatedly regret things that we do?

Does the metazoan, insect, animal or man know why it reproduces?

Everybody’s so noble, but they run right out and pop little ones, and go through the necessary machinery or role to do so.

Do the trees create wind by waving their branches, or is it always moved by an external force?

Does a person seduce another, or are they both seduced?

What does man do besides fertilize?

Are you a hero or a victim?

Are you loved, or are you consumed?

Do you have possessions, or are you possessed by them?

Which is more evident and apparent to you: your divinity, or your animal appearance?

If we wish to plan our lives, do we not need to consider while planning that it may be all planned, and that we have no choice?

How do we plan around that possibility?

10:15

Must we not define our limitations?

When we define our limitations, do we automatically need to define ourself?

Do we discover more accurately the nature of our Self?

By Self I mean with a capital “s”. When we talk about finding the Self or defining the Self, we’re talking about capital-“s” Self. For the small-“s” self, I agree with B.F. Skinner, that that’s the animal self.

How much of human action is fated, predestined?

Is the knowledge of factors of any value in the face of possible predestination?

If we’re predestined, why act? Or why refuse to act?

What do we know for sure? Do you believe more than you really know?

Is all our reality merely a collective belief? A paradigm?

Of course, if you want a reference to that theme, it’s Joseph Chilton-Pearce. , Chilton-Pearce believed that we can create our own paradigm. I think a lot of people are going about things that way. The big game in life today is to create by agreement, by whooping it up: “We’re going to create a perfect world.”

11:46

Is science a mental feat created by mankind, or is it only a human discovery of a mental set?

You’ve got a mathematical set, and we carry it on – we find out that we can build greater sets with the aid of the little sets, and the result is possibly a science. I’m just asking, “Is it?”

Or is scientific reality only a progression of events, planned and expedited by a mentality of cosmic or spiritual proportions, which utilizes the mentality, egos and energy of humans?

What is life?

What is death?

Are these items ever properly defined except in terms of each other?

Life is not death, death is not life, and we’re satisfied.

Can theological facts be established by voting?

Is Mary the mother of God, or is humanity the mother of God? Or neither?

Is God determined by victorious armies?

Is virtue established by psychological edict? By ecclesiastical vote? Or by the requisites of our ultimate essence?

What is sin? An offense against yourself? An offense against your fellowman? An offense against God?

Is an offense against God recognized by divine outcry, earthquake or cosmic catastrophe?

Is it a sin to eat meat?

15:29

Are the animals our brothers? Are they possessed of intelligence and soul?

Do animals sin when they eat other animals?

Or are such sinning animals pardoned for keeping ecology in balance?

That’s one of the great whoop-de-doos today, keeping ecology in balance. So we might absolve them from their sin.

Is it wrong to kill except for food?

If so, why do we do wrong by not eating the people we kill?

14:01

Who is knowledgeable about good? (in the item of goodness)

Is good that which we desire, or that which is in itself good?

What is the condition of being “in-itself” good? (or in-itself whatever)

If a man drives a horse through a plate glass window, should the man be prosecuted or the horse?

If a man steals to feed his children, should we prosecute the man or that which drove him, the children?

If a man rapes a girl should we prosecute a) the man, b) the girl who tempted him, c) his ancestors for his genetic inheritance or glandular inclination, or d) the force that designed mankind?

What is equality?

Was Samson equal to Delilah?

Is a baby equal to a dying man?

Are you only half of a plan by virtue of not possessing both sexes?

Is peace of mind more important than global peace or herd-peace?

15:16

Who or what are you?

Are you only a body?

Are you rather a complex organism, a cell colony, a nature-oriented bundle of conditioned reflexes?

Is the brain a monitoring station, designed for the organism’s indefinite survival?

Or is our body programmed for death, following procreation, like the corn and the wheat?

I’m speaking of the death gene now. In other words, once you reproduce, you’re no longer needed.

15:56

Is all religion and philosophy merely rationalization, emanating from the computer, to answer constant cellular awareness of death?

In other words, is religion an outgrowth of the fear of death?

Or is the universal belief in life after death an intuitive reading from that computer? – a reading not completely translatable into computer symbols, which are limited.

Is there a soul? Did it exist before the body, or must it be developed, grown or evolved?

Nobody seems to care.

Prove the following: mind, other than somatic awareness; subconscious mind; ego, id, superego; chakra, kundalini; tisra-til; astral, etheric, causal, desire bodies; aura, halo, ectoplasm; spiritual ear (there has been a lot of money spent on that one), spiritual nectar; conscience.

In other words, these things are being thrown about – that’s the reason I listed them – and we somehow manage to put a lot of importance on them.

What is time?

Does time pass, or is only you who passes?

Is space-time a stable matrix, while we are only transient visitors?

17:38

How much of life is only a mirage? (some people when they’re dying might see it as that)

Do we see this world infallibly, or obliquely?

Are the senses fallible, or infallible?

Can you see, hear, feel, smell or taste time?

Is time only a relative conceptualization? What is the reality of time?

Does the ant or amoeba interpret duration the same as a man, or does its time pass more swiftly?

18:19

In other words, does he lead a long life? – or does the fruit fly lives only a few minutes of our time. Maybe he lives a long life. [to him]

What is duration? What does a lifetime feel like?

When you get to be my age, you’ll know a little more each year how much it feels like.

Does it feel different to a child than to an old person?

What is the relation of memory to time?

Do we remember a duration, or measure it, if we have no clock at hand?

Do we remember how long a pain lasted, when it occurred a year ago?

19:00

Would women become pregnant as often if they remembered the duration and intensity of the pain of childbirth?

Did you ever talk to them about it? The ones I’ve talked to didn’t think much of it, after a few days had gone by, or maybe a few weeks.

Do we have a real sense of time when we hear a clock ticking? Do we then know what a second is, or what stretch of consciousness exists for others in that second?

Do the wings of a hummingbird move rapidly or slowly, to the gauging of the hummingbird?

To the time sense of the fruit fly, is his life long or short?

Is the sense of duration, or passing time, proportional to the mass of the entity that experiences it?

Does time exist other than as a fascination which seems to be brief or longer of duration?

20:00

If the sun is our ultimate clock, of the earth’s rotation as a measurement, what is our measurement of time after the death of our senses?

Is time an illusion that prevents us from experiencing a Self that has no motion?

Have you ever heard a clock ticking in a delirium?

If the mind can be distorted in a delirium, or in an LSD trip, does the mind ever understand the true feeling of a second?

What is nostalgia? Is it the soul’s viewing of a previous feeling?

What is space? Is space interdependent with time?

Are they not measured by each other?

Such as with a light-year; time is determined by spatial phenomena, rotation. duration. [?]

Do space and time exist at all except in reference to us?

What is the understanding of insects, of the distance to the sun or moon?

If they could look up and see that, what would their appraisal be as far as time [?] is concerned? Because they have no clocks. [?] [note: mixes time and distance] [Forum part 1 ends]

Forum Part 2

21:24

Do we have a true picture of nature?

When we appreciate nature as being beautiful, is such an appreciation of life or of death?

Now seriously, I mean, how much of what we consider beautiful is the ebbing and flowing of life? One time a fellow came to my house, and it was springtime and the birds were chirping, and the grass beginning to grow, and everything looked promising and wonderful. I said, “Did it ever occur to you that they might be screaming?” They’re eating each other while they’re – they? you? don’t lose a meal, you know.

Have you ever watched the world that goes on in a drop of water, or in a cancerous tissue?

22:11

How many protozoans are required to sustain the world’s metazoans? Can they be counted?

How many protozoans are eaten alive every second?

How many microscopic metazoans are eaten alive by larger metazoans?

Is death painless for these beings? Do they scream?

How many small metazoans are needed to feed one worm for a day? Or one insect.

22:38

How many worms or insects die every minute to feed the birds?

How many worms or insects are needed to feed a pair of birds and their fledglings each day?

How many worms or insects are needed for one hen’s egg?

Boy, you’re getting a lot of life in it.

In the summer we hear the hum of many insects. Is the hum beautiful, orchestral, or a bedlam of screaming?

Are not trees more attractive in autumn, in dying?

Which is the true destiny of all beings – a growth into individual eminence [check] or a means of energy food for higher beings? Meaning predators.

23:26

Was his last name God?

Now this is what I call the theological section:

Should self-definition have priority over concerns for health?

Is the idea of personal immortality, before such idea has been proven by experiencing immortality, any more than an egotistical idea?

What are the mechanics of divine healing?

Should the search for God have precedence over using an unidentified divinity as a healing utility?

24:06

Now to clarify that, in other words are searching for God, but some people are just going about – they’re able to learn how to heal somebody, and they ascribe that to God; at least they’ve got a toe-hold on God now, because they healed somebody, and healing them call it divine.

Is God a gigantic gestalt?

Why are we here?

Are we accidents of evolution, animals that accidentally evolved upon a planet that accidentally evolved?

The chances of accidental evolution seem unlikely in view of the complexities of protoplasm, such as the ability of the cell to produce mili-voltage components and to possess memory. Can we say that all this came about by an immediate or instantaneous teleological prompting which had to take thousands of years to develop, after the million years needed to evolve less-specialized cells similar to plant cells?

25:14

In other words, look on the time, the space between – if it’s a theory that we evolve from ketone enzymes, for instance, how many million years for that type of evolution. And then when you look at a thing like synapses in the human brain and neurotransmitters – very delicate chemicals – to think that this would evolve – how would very delicate chemicals evolve?

25:44 Were we created by a skillful biochemist? If you look at building a building or an airplane or something, and you get the components of it, there had to be some skill there, rather than evolution.

What is the process that would result in the evolution of synaptic voltage? (How would you bring it about if you tried it synthetically?)

[Question missing ]

If so [?], is not a very detailed and consistent dream, showing few variations, seeming to strictly adhere to a blueprint, [?]

In other words, if it’s a dream or an illusion, it’s abiding by some sort of blueprint.

Is man manufacturing this blueprint, by setting up a rough paradigm, and creating details such as brain chemistry as he goes along?

That’s what Chilton-Pearce thought; that we were building it ourselves. A lot of people think that we’re making this a nicer world to live in, and all this stuff. But can they? Is it possible?

26:47

If so, has man lost control of his creation, if he cannot find an alternative for disease and death?

When our lusts reach a certain peak, it seems like new diseases come along to keep us busy

What are the odds for an accidental synthesis of a ketone enzyme? (Just accidentally, in a puddle of water.)

What is he significance of common denominators? Are they valid for evaluating religion and behavior?

We use this thing of common denominators to evaluate a truth in mathematics. Can we do that by just saying they exist in great numbers, they must be important.

Is there a body-manufactured force?

This is another realm of research or thought – such as an Odile, vril, élan vital, or quantum energy, capable of powerful [tremendous] magical power, transferrable and projectable.

27:53

There are two windows, states of mind, which are not consistent with each other; they are the daytime view and the nighttime view. The latter, with its dreams and horizontal speculations, upon awakening form a strange field of thought, and threatens the convictions of daytime. How do we balance this force?

What bearing do these often morbid night states of mind have upon violent acts?

Is there any value in speculating on the genesis of biological or human life, weighing the value and importance of slow evolvement against the possible perfect instantaneous creation? And weighing the suffering and dying against perfect or unchanging immortality?

“Don’t worry,” they say, “you’ll be born again.” (So you suffer a little, pay your taxes.)

Are ecologists trying to thwart the ordained directions of the engineer who designed the evolution of life?

29:02

Sanity and syphilis – are they both decided by approval, by democratic voting? (Or just after they occur do we vote them equal?) [??]

If man did not cause himself, then that which caused him is invisible – meaning not apparent in this dimension. What reason would a superior engineer have for creating a life as seen on earth? – meaning all flora and fauna.

29:32

How rational are some of the reasons given for the acceptance of the creator-concept, and a set of morals presumed to gain tolerance from that creator?

(Not much more to go.)

What is talk?

Why is talk necessary?

What causes different perspectives?

What liabilities are incurred with unavoidable states of mind?

What is a state of mind?

I’m dead serious. I’d like for you to know. Because these are the things that move every human being: states of mind. They’re not in the psychological glossary.

30:19

Are perspectives rooted in valid bases and definitions, or in indefinable feelings – which may be as valid or meaningful as definitions?

Does a given color cause the same reaction in all people?

Why do some perfumes enchant one person and cause nausea in another?

What is beauty?

How do perspectives which reflect feelings affect science?

Do they help of hinder?

Can a scientist totally rule out feelings of judgments?

Did the scientists of Columbus’s time feel that the earth was flat, or know that the earth was flat?

How about some of them today, then?

31:06

What is wisdom?

Is it foolishness or wasted effort, unless it is restricted to objective or materialistic values?

Is all wisdom unbiased?

Is a wise man just one who gets along with his fellowman? (We’d like to have that belief.)

Is wisdom just adaptation, symbiosis, or blending with others to a point of losing personal identity?

31:38

Is silence a trademark of wisdom – even if the silence is caused by cowardice?

Who or what is the authority in regard to human essence or nature?

Does a man love, or is he incapable of loving?

Does a man desire to be loved while pretending to love others?

Does a tick love the host, or the blood of the host?

Is love of every kind programmed and projected onto us?

Is there only one dimension?

Does not the possibility of multiple dimensions weaken our significance and our pretended potential for controlling the environment?

32:32

What is God?

What are his dimensions?

What is the soul?

Are these just aberrated ideas?

Why do people use words like God or soul without going to some effort to define them?

What is an idea?

Is there a thinking self, or only an awareness that witnesses reaction, and may possibly witness a pseudo ego or self?

Can a man have spiritual or essence clarity and by psychologically confused?

[repeats this for emphasis]

(The savant idiots, the starets of Russia – clay? nuts? they say.)

Are we an individual, or a conglomerate of several selves?

If there is such a conglomerate, how is the real Self isolated? (That’s capital-“S”.)

Have we just now isolated the real Self, by taking the position of [an] external questioner?

Is thought a possession or an obsession?

What is the relationship between thoughts and glands? (Think about that one for awhile.)

What is sanity or insanity?

34:09

Is sanity only somatic healthiness?

Are unpopular people insane? Or outside the normal curve?

Could sanity ever mean that state of mind with perfect understanding of all problems? A state of mind from which the altering lens of ego has been removed from mental vision or perception?

34:37

In other words, to really see things, you might have to take away the ego lens.

Would such a version of sanity imply the need of perfected logic or perfected intuition?

Intuition is another item that is not seen much in your psychological texts.

What is intuition? How does one arrive at it?

Is thought is a reaction to an electrical stimulus?

Now this seems to be the biochemical idea of thought: it’s an electrical stimulus caused by voltage, leaping across the synapse.

If we cannot willfully think, do we ever make decisions?

Or is it possible that only the people who realize that they cannot enforce decisions, are the ones who eventually find ways and means to make things happen?

If we think about thought, is thought then objective and separate from the thinking self?

Is thought an entity, or an emanation of sorts?

Can sanity be gauged by logic? (It should be.)

Is behavior considered normal by virtue of percentages of incidences? (The normal curve again.)

Is all of such “normal” behavior always logically excusable?

In other words, if fifty-one percent of the people in this country become murderers, it will be normal. Is that logical?

Is sanity a way of measuring he skill of survival?

Or is sanity also involved in the skill of checking factors such as motivation, correct reasons for living, quality-control of morality, and the control or evaluation of environmental factors?

Would our behavior be the same if we discovered by logical or even common-sense means that our environment were greater or less than we previously believed it to be?

36:52

In other words, in parenthesis I have “More mind dimension. The sanest bird cannot outwit the rifle.” Much less, higher technology by poisoning. In other words, would we behave the same way if we discovered, beyond speculation, that there was no life after death? If we really got that proof someday: absolutely nothing but oblivion – how would that affect your behavior?

37:23

Are we not caught somewhere between, and is not this materialism a bit of fence-riding, that says on one hand that we can accept only that which we see, while refusing to look [for] or see new factors, not immediately available to our senses? Or new truths which would give new definitions to life and new meaning to existence?

Psychiatry contains opinions rather than pure scientific findings. Has psychology become a cult?

Does psychology or psychotherapy rule by edict rather than by reason? (In other words, if the high priest says, “That’s it,” then that’s the law.)

Is there any science in the modus operandi of these current mental therapies?

38:16

Is it safe to allow psychologists to monitor our lives, if they are only cognizant of body-survival, and would program us only for that?

Are psychologists who work in advertising and promotion a boon to mankind, or are they the manipulators without the proper respect for the victims of selfish or spurious interests?

Can a psychiatrist produce sanity in a person if he has not adequately defined sanity?

38:50

This is their stock in trade, those words. they have nothing but words for their stock in trade, and they can’t define the words.

If he defines sanity, should he the psychiatrist not be required to bring sanity to every patient who is any degree insane.

Now they admit they’re insane, because they’ve got to get their money. But lately there have been lawsuits coming out that – somebody runs amuk after talking to a psychiatrist, and I presume that that’s a – you know, a proper thing.[?] They should either be a good witch doctor or no witch doctor?

What does behaviorism prove?

What do the tracks made by an animal prove? Do they tell you about the essence anfdd purpose of that animal?

Does a normal curve define normality and moraality?

39:50

Can we study the mind by ignoring brain chemistry and behavioristic testing? (I xcall it introspection, structure-less.)

Is it more important to know what a man is thinking or capable of doing, than it is to know who it is who is thinking or doing, and what is thought? [what thought is]

Are the conclusions reached by introspective thinking corroborated by sciences such as brain chemistry and the statistics of behaviorism?

40:27

Now I’ve got a point here that – I just realized the importance of it lately; I throw this out with no indicated partisanship:

Is he photon an intelligent messenger of God?

Is the photon an distraction? extraction? being that dazzles the human eyes so they cannot see the realities found in introspection?

Will you ever be free and at the same time be aware?

41:03

That’s it. What are the five most important ones? [Forum Part 2 ends] [silence]

Dead space on tape from 41:27 until end at 41:58

[tape ends at 41:58]

File 2

File 2 – 42 minutes. First 4 ½ minutes of side 2 was blank (so deleted in mp3).

Forum Part 3

Intuition

00:00

Intuition is something that I don’t find in any books – I don’t find an analysis of it. But the thing is that our thinking is limited to our set of symbols – which is composed of an alphabet when we go to speak of it. And we examine things interminably, battling back and forth, making graphs and charts and stuff, thinking – by [which] you get some mathematical formula from a graph or something.

00:40

But there’s a factor – the human mind has a factor which – I maintain that the whole psychological system has dodged, and the practitioners have no knowledge of using it, ?? all each other – can’t use it. And that is [that] intuition leads to direct mind communication.

01:05

And intuition doesn’t come [from learning] – it comes with a child. The little child has it – because the little child has no language. I always said that children are born like Gods, angels, and we seduce them with language, in order to put them to work.

So consequently – somebody said, way back there, that little children would have access to the kingdom of heaven. The kingdom of heaven he also said is within you. And it’s through this childish intuition that you can – that the road becomes wider.

01:52

Now there are ways and means of developing your intuition.

Q. Care to say them?

R. I won’t tell you. [Casari? laughs]

Q. ?!

R. No, I won’t tell you, because it’s different for different people.

Q. ??

R. Yes. And unless you – in other words, to give you an example, of where? it applies, in the application end of it – and I hate to keep referring to myself. I remember one instance – I used to work on the atomic submarine, up in Alliance, Ohio, at a research place. They were using atomic isotope power for intense heat, and they were trying to get pipes that would carry that to a boiler, to create steam, through the boiler.

02:56

And it burned up everything they put it in – they put it in copper tubes and it would immediately melt – it’s a tremendous temperature. So they passed it through a boiler of KNa, and the KNa – it looks like liquid mercury, it’s sodium and potassium, a compound, but when they fuse them together it looks like mercury. And that will flow through a pipe. So they devised a big pipe? with a hole through it about the size of a pencil, so it wouldn’t blow up.

03:27

And to get that to where it was going, they had to pump it. And when you pump it through a line, you can’t escape getting into the impeller of the pump, and the impeller floats on a barium? that? ??. And as soon as KNa hits water or any water compound it blows up. So they were at a dead standstill on creating a pump for the atomic transfer of energy

03:54

so what happened, there was a man there – he was a Christian Scientist – I don’t want to say it, because I’m not touting Christian Science; in fact I used to needle him all the time because I thought he was leaning too much on belief. But this man had no chemistry or physics – I had majored in physics myself, so I knew a little bit, but I knew nothing of what was going on. This man had no education in that. But he said one day, “Why don’t you pass the KNa between the field and the central armature.” And they said, “Oh, that will never work, because it’s a metal and it will probably wrap around the, unite with the copper, and that sort of thing.

And he said, “Why not try it?” Of course this – it seemed like it was doomed to failure, because of the heat element and everything. But they did it. They tried it – and that’s the reason they’re pumping it today – because a man who wasn’t even a scientist had an intuition.

05:02

Another thing is, you look at these savant-idiots, as they call them. And you say to the guy, “What’s 350,000 times 242,999?” or something. and he thinks awhile and tells you, and they check it out on the computer and he’s right. That’s intuition. That’s an instant knowledge of something that’s seemingly un-knowledgeable. [unknowable] But he’s got some key. All these other doors are shut off, so he can focus on intuition.

05:34

The animal has intuition. The animal knows when to run – you know, when they’re attacked. And we are complex – very complex beings, but we’ve have trained ourselves to be mechanical: don’t move until you’ve added the column up and subtracted it correctly, and all of this sort of thing; and we know exctly what’s going on, so we can predict it the next time.

06:03

Intuition brings up a lot of things, very valuable, that can’t be duplicated. Because the operator doesn’t even know why. But eventually the choosing, while in that state of mind ?? – see. It’s like I was talking earlier about when I was in the srminary. And I was just a kid – I went away when I was about twelve years of age. And I didn’t know anything about religion, except I thought that God was in the altar. And then I thought – I thought that all the nuns and priests had no intestines, they had no bowel movements or anything like that. And I thought they all had to be saints. Of course I found out that – I was disappointed in that, you might say. I found them human.

06:59

But I just sensed that they weren’t sincere. And I got out; I left them – just because of that sense. If I hadn’t, I’d be a slave yet today. I’d be a slave to a dogma I couldn’t prove.

Now I can’t prove a lot of things that I know – but I can show them to you. And one of the things – we had a little meeting, I think it was in this building, I don’t know. ?? ?? behind me like that. And we were doing experiments in hypnosis. And the reason for it is to show the – through hypnosis you can see the human mind very clearly.

07:44

And I could – after you get in harmony with your audience you can start to tell which ones are susceptible. There’s no – you can’t say it’s the blinking of an eye or what it is. But then this intensifies, and I used to walk through the audience and point at a person and say, “you have a headache.” Now a lot of people say you’re suggesting it, because it’s a hypnotic background [?] or something. [But] the hypnosis was to remove the headache. That’s what that was for.

08:19

But – we were having a Chautauqua up in Pittsburgh and I was reciting this thing [something] to a man. And two doctors were sitting there; one was a chiropractor or an osteopath, and the other was an MD, from over at Ravenna, Ohio. But not only could I see the headache but I could put my finger on it. [And] I put my finger on it right there – then I would take it away. I pulled it out the top of their head.

08:51

So the – what was the doctor’s name?

Q. Houseman. [?]

R. Houseman? was the chiropractor or the osteopath, and Bissel, Doc Bissel from Ravenna. Houseman said, “You know, something like that happened to me.” He said he had a little girl [who] came in with her mother – her mother was getting her bones adjusted or something. And the girl said to him, to the doctor, she said, “You have a sore shoulder.” And he said, “How’d you know?” She said, “I know, I can see it.” And he said, “Can you point your finger where it hurts?” He said this was a twelve year old kid walked over and put her finger right on there.

09:43

Now the reason I’m going through this – you don’t have to believe it, you’ll run across incidents in your lifetime, and people will tell you these things. But this is intuition. This is the – this is without the formula. The formula – there’s a formula there – believe me, you’ll understand it once you see enough of it. You’ll understand what it is.

10:01

And in the book, if any of you have ahold of it, The Direct Mind Experience, there’s a chapter there on betweenness. And that explains how it happens and the way you hold your head for it to happen.

Consequently, the things that we define by intuition are shouted down by the verbalists, the people who say, “Prove it.” But the proof is in the pudding. You can get a scientific doctor who can’t cure you. And then somebody like a savant idiot [referring to himself] comes along and patches it up.

10:46

So this is very important, because when you’re into, now, self-definition, the possibility that you have an interior or surviving self, or that there’s a dimension that you’ll enter after you die, or you have an experience and you come back, and you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that you lived beyond that experience – that can only be done if you have an intuition. And you’ll only get there if you have the intuition.

11:14

Because of the simple fact that you’ll be waiting for – everybody is looking for mundane things; we’re not looking for truths. Because the truths in this line of [are] subjective – we’re talking about a subjective thing – the body’s no longer here now. The body is no longer conscious.

How many accounts do you hear of it? and you hear them. Well, Moody, a guy named Moody wrote a book, Life After Life. And these are coming out now; and the reason they didn’t come out before is because the people in the operating room were told not to repeat a thing that they ever heard, in the hospital. The nurses, the doctors, because it would lead to arguments or maybe even lawsuits or something of that sort. And it was just best to, you know, the guy was talking about robbing a bank, well don’t repeat it; he didn’t come in there to go to jail, he came in to get help.

12:10

Consequently That feeling has left [gone] now. People are very curious about things. One of the signs of an impending disaster is when people start getting interested in esoteric philosophy. They’ve had their religion with them for a hundred years and religion didn’t answer the question, so, “Let’s go down to the witch doctor.” See what the witch doctor says, just for the hell of it.

12:36

Q. Throw some bones.

R. Yes, throw the bones out and see what happens.

12:46

Q. ??

R. The approaching death. I’m trying to do something before I die.

Q. ??

R. You say less altruistic?

Q. I’m asking would you consider, when you say “because of approaching death” – are you then saying that ?? ??

12:22

R. No, no. I know what’s going to happen to me. I’m just saying I’d like to run across some real people before I die, that’s all.

Q. ??

R. I can’t hear you.

Q. ??

R. As opposed to what? (can’t hear)

Q.

R. Intellectually it can’t be tied in “and with” [?] physical development or mental development. Spiritual development is invisible. IP mean, the average, it depends – again, we’re going into definition. What you would say or somebody in this audience would say is “spiritual”, how they define it, and the way I define it. My idea of spiritual development is a person who is aware of their essence.

14:20

To merely sit around and declare that God exists because he’s in Genesis isn’t spiritual with me. That’s make-believe.

Q. ??

R. You can’t tell them, believe me. You can’t tell a spiritual person. Because – they’re like savant idiots. Number one, if he’s truthful and honest he’ll be himself; he won’t be a hypocrite. So if he looks like a slug and talks like a slug, you’ll think he’s a slug. But he may be spiritual; he may be – well? – he may not understand himself. That is apparent to other people. To other people, as soon as you start talking to them.

Story of Paul Wood

15:06

I met a man one time, he had come up from Texas. At this time I was going up to Akron. We had some people up there; they had graduated from Alcoholics Anonymous and now were on something of an esoteric or spiritual path. Bill Wilson himself was an enlightened man, incidentally, although he was originally an alcoholic; he was the founder of Alcoholics Anonymous. Anyhow, this group of people had met there, through Alcoholics Anonymous, and they had a little get-together and were interested in spiritual work.

15:47

And they brought a man up from Texas – or he came up, rather, to visit Bob Martin, the fellow I knew real well. And he had been enlightened. And he looked like the Crazy Guggenheim, the guy who used to be the sidekick for Jacky Gleason. I may have the wrong show. This was a stocky fellow with eyes that sagged down, fat, a big heavy fellow. But that doesn’t matter, that’s the description of him. It was the last thing – to just take a glance at him you would never think he was a – you’d think he’d spent a lot of time drinking, which he did, before he had this experience.

16:40

And to look at him you wouldn’t have thought he was a – anything. And they brought fellows from Firestone or Goodyear or one of those places, they brought in some of these engineers, from everybody, being in town. [wording] So they came over to look at him through the glass, and see if he was crazy or not.

And he was telling us about what happened. he was an engineering student, so when the war broke out they made him a pilot, or something on a bomber. And his [air] ship bombed Nagasaki or one of those places.

17:24

And he was a Bible student, before that. And he said that it bugged him after he dropped the bombs, and his commanding officer said, “You’d better take a leave,” You’d better – create a sabbatical or something and go home, an get some rest. Because he couldn’t see the idea of him going back on another mission.

So he said that – the thing that troubled him was that he had believed the Bible, and that this wasn’t coinciding with his belief in the Bible. And he said that in the Bible it says that God observes the fall of the sparrow. And here’s a bomber dropping tremendously big eggs on these people, and killing them by the eighty thousand. So he said, “Where is this God I believed in?”

18:19

Well he came back to Texas, San Antonio I think it was. And he was married; he had some little children. And he couldn’t have any peace until that was answered. He just became obsessed with finding that answer. And he said that – he got into a habit. He says, “Well I ... “ he realized that he was troubled, and he said, “The reason for my trouble is,” you know, evidentially spiritual; and he said, “If I’m a fundamentalist I ought to go into the Bible and find the answer.”

18:55

So he got to searching through the Bible and he found where Christ supposedly said (I’m quoting him, because I don’t read that much), If you would have something granted to you, pray thusly.” And what followed was the Lord’s Prayer. So he meditated, concentrated, analyzed the Lord’s Prayer – twenty-four hours day. And he got a job – his wife – they were quarreling because he wasn’t making any money. So he got a job as a new car or a used car salesman in a dealership down there. But he wasn’t doing them much good; he was acting a little buggy. And he said that he was just overwhelmed one day, and he prayed for God to kill him. And he said that he passed out.

19:46

And when he woke up he was in a hospital. And for ten days he travelled in space-time. Now the thing was that all the time he was in the hospital he was conscious, but his body seemingly was unconscious. But the amazing thing was that his trip doesn’t coincide with some of the other incidences of enlightenment. In that he actually – he was more like Swedenborg – he could drop into almost any time category that he wanted to.

And he’d be walking down the street with this friend of mine, Bob Martin – Bob Martin used to relay a lot of this stuff to me – and he’d watch the battle of Gettysburg, or he’d watch something going on in Europe, and he would describe it accurately. And then brush it aside as if it didn’t mean anything. In other words, he somehow abridged, to get past time as being independent of space. they’re both ?? as one.

20:50

Well, the people from – the engineers from Firestone and Goodyear were kind of sneering at him. I didn’t say anything. I was watching him. And I came to the conclusion that he had been there. I knew he had been there, from what he was saying.

And they started throwing questions at him: “Well, if you know so much, why aren’t you rich?” and this sort of thing. they didn’t seem to get the importance of what he had become or discovered.

We do not, incidentally, learn anything in this life – of importance, on a philosophic basis. We become only. We only become. And you never find God until you are God. And that’s the simple answer.

21:49

But anyhow, they were ridiculing him. And he started telling a story about – somebody said, - one time he said he was down in Texas and he said he was hungry. He believed that because he was – he was going around trying to tell people to read the Lord’s Prayer, to get this enlightenment. Of course, it didn’t work, because none of them was like him; they hadn’t bombed Japan.

22:20

But anyhow, he said he was, sometimes he’d have – he didn’t look for food. His wife left him, the kids left him. He just stayed – he got a little place by himself and he was out in the country. And he said that every time he’d get on the point of starvation, one of the ranchers would bring a quarter of beef in, or something for him to eat – one of the people who lived around there; tey seemed to know he was, you know, didn’t care whether he lived or died, or not.

22:49

And he said that one time he was really down and out, and he had nothing to eat except an onion and a soup bone of some sort. So he just filled a big – he knew there was [were] people there who had come to visit him. And he said, “All I’ve got is some broth.” And they said, “Okay.” Sp he cooks up this big pot of broth, and he said everybody ate it, and seemingly they were satisfied.

Of course the thought went through everybody’d head, “Oh, well this fellow’s borrowing from the loaves and fishes parable and he’s going to capitalize on it.” And Bob says to him, “Paul, geez, I wish you hadn’t told that story.” He said, “I’ve been telling these people how sincere you are and everything.” And I looked over at Bob and I said, “Bob, shut up.” I said, “He doesn’t give a damn whether they believe it or not.” He told it because it was true, that’s all. And he didn’t care if people believed it.

23:47

But this is the – the thing that you can’t – the thing is that people want words, formulas. When you tell them about any spiritual experience they say, “Here’s a thousand dollars, can you do it in fifteen minutes? I’ve got to be at a bus in fifteen minutes.”

24:06

And that’s the unfortunate direction that most people have: “I’m rich – here, bud, here’s a thousand bucks,” or five hundred bucks or whatever.

24:19

It can’t – the only way a person can ever experience it is by going the same road. They’ve got to go down the same road, to go through the same troubles, if that’s what it takes – whatever it is.

Did I answer your question, or just talk too much?

24:39

Q. I want to know what you’re reading out of. Is that a book that you’ve written?

R. This is the most recent book that the TAT Foundation has produced, and in it are some of my writings. That I wrote – that’s a lecture I gave, “The Lecture of Questions.”

Q. How would somebody get a copy of that?

R. The little man over there with the smile. [laughs] I shouldn’t say little, he’s as tall as I am.

Q. I like all the questions, but I can’t pick out the best five, the most significant five.

25:16

R. Sure. You’d have to sort through them while I was talking. I knew that.

need heading

Q. ??

R. I think you have to be free to be aware. I think you have to be. There’s a lot of things, that once you get to figuring them out – for instance, there’s humility – I’m just picking something out of the air now – like when I was in the seminary they were trying to teach everybody to be humble. Do you know what humility can do for you if you ever get thrown in jail? Do you understand what I mean? We have to have enough pride, and you have to carry yourself with pride and self-protection, to a point where you no longer need it.

But this is a jungle. You have to be realistic. You can’t be humble with animals.

26:23

Q. ??

26:47

R. Umm, don’t worry about it. Because you see it’s basically – basically what you’re doing is you are your own therapist, and ?? [not] a good one, because it’s making you unhappy. By that I mean – whenever you start analyzing yourself you get to hate yourself – by previous standards. you’re never – there’s no great pride in being a human. But if it causes disquiet, why – hey, when I had my experience I wept for a week. For a week. But it was the result of what I discovered.

So don’t be dismayed if you have some unhappy moments. The happy ones are as much as a mirage as the unhappy ones. Only the happy ones are more deadly – they’ll trap you. The unhappy ones only drive you away. [part 3 ends] 27:53

Forum Part 4

Q. ?? – very long

28:57

R. Well, imagination is just associations. Imagination is nothing more than a free running of associations. But your intuition is something that – it’s a becoming. It’s like growing a new faculty. And it can only be done by a protected lifestyle. You have to protect yourself.

Q. What do you mean by that?

R. I don’t want to explain it to you. [commotion] No, no – I’m doing this because there are two sexes here. And women are born with intuition, but it kind of runs wild; it can get haywire. But a woman is much more sensitive. And I go back to anthropology, if you want to call it that. And that the reason the woman was gifted was that she had to raise the young, which were helpless; and she had to be able to make an instant decision on how to protect their lives against a predator. Whereas the man – that wasn’t his concern so much as much as protecting the wife, or just defending himself. So he developed a logical system, of getting a sharper ax to chop up the enemy with.

30:13

The thing is that in the female the intuition does run wild sometimes. In other words, I’ve seen women who when their husband was in a beer joint, they knew exactly which beer joint he was in. They’d just see it, the picture, and maybe call on the phone and get him, at the right place. And then they’d become proud of that and really thought they had something, and then they’d make a fatal mistake, in that judgment as a result of listening to their intuition.

30:49

So – I’ll say this much to you. It boils down to this, that you can check it. Now whether you can enlarge on it, or excel in it, by checking it – but you can check your intuition and you should. Everybody should perpetually check their intuition. That would be each checking it, of course, as germane to whatever problem you’re on.

31:12

Q. ??

R. See some people – I’ve heard people say – you’ll run across people like this. there was a truck driver that was telling me this. He said that he had a voice once in a while that would speak to him. And he said he would always listened to it. And one time he didn’t and he was in wreck – it cost him - ?? – it wasn’t a wreck – somebody was trying to hit him. I think the trucker’s union or something was fighting and they were trying to hit him. So they got him. He said he was going around this truck full of bricks, they were carrying a load of bricks, and he said he heard the voice real plain say – it called him by name – it said, “Duck,” and said he ignored it, and got hit in the head with a brick.

32:09

But he used to – I watched him follow that, I’d watched him over the years follow that intuition. And he had a voice that spoke to him. Now that’s something – I don’t understand why the voice, but I don’t argue with it, as long as it’s giving him the information. But intuition doesn’t necessarily mean that a voice is going to speak to you. But it did to him.

32:36

But he was checking it out. [dog barks] He wanted proof. So he got proof, checking it out.

Q. ??

R. Intuition takes you to different states, to higher states. You can’t travel that road – unless you have the intuitional guide, logic is [inaudible – abso leaving the pivment??] I f you notice the tone of the reading – we think we’re operating so much by logic, and we don’t know the human mind. We don’t know – people are practicing psychology and psychiatry and can’t define thought. And this should be against the law. That’s their stock in trade and they should know what they’re talking about.

33:21

And consequently, someone else can come along and heal people – and maybe he doesn’t know how he does it, but he knows that if he keeps his head in a certain way, why, things will happen. So what’s wrong with that, even if he doesn’t have a license? As long as he’s not harming. Not only that, but you can’t tell what he might avoid, some physical operation, as to what he’s taking care of by those means.

33:50

It’s not that I’m – in other words, I – one time somebody said to me – they heard that these things happened around me. They said, “Why don’t you heal people?” You can only do one thing in your life. You shouldn’t focus on too many different things. Number one, I think that people should first try to heal themselves; find the cause, quit [doing] what makes you sick. stop it. Go to another direction. But the main thing is that you do get powers – there are powers that come to you – and they surprised me. I was amazed when they first started happening. But I made up my mind not to use them, because I have one objective – that’s the maximum. I’m going for the maximum potential for people, not necessarily where they’ve got to take off a wart, or to stop them from bleeding or something like that.

34:53

I wrote a letter to Kathryn Kuhlman - I don’t know whether you’ve heard of here or not – anyone remember Kathryn Kuhlman? She was a healer; she was on the radio for years and years, out of Pittsburgh. So I wrote her a letter – I said, “How do you operate?” And she wrote back; she said, “I don’t do anything.” And of course, at that time if you claimed to be healer you could get sued or te government could stop you from practicing medicine. The same as practicing medicine without a license, for going into the business of healing people.

35:33

So she was – the unfortunate part about it was, when she said that, you couldn’t actually believe whether she was telling you the truth, or whether she thought you were a detective trying to see if she’s charging for healing people.

35:49

But there is a – in other words, it’s almost like – if you want to become a millionaire, you can become a millionaire, starting young enough, you know – but some people have done it very [later]. But it’s total dedication to something. And if you want to be a mathematician, you can become mathematician, by total application. You can’t do two or three ort five other? things with it.

36:21

Q. Wouldn’t you find that through your life you positioned yourself to where you ?? to where you’re at right now, and all of a sudden you realize that that’s not what you’re supposed to do? You feel like ?? ?? ?? you may be getting away with it?? even if you’re doing it??

R. If you have any intuition, [that] there is a certain path that you should follow, or certain thing that you should do – follow it. Follow it – come hell or high water. That’s anything, whether it’s making money or anything. Of course, I didn’t choose money. Because I – when I was a kid, naturally? I went away to be a priest, and if I had wanted to get rich I surely wouldn’t have gone there. Although my Dad says you got “free wine”.

But that was my objective, and I thought I’ll keep at it.

You get – when I started to get bald I started looking for a girl. I thought, “Hell, nobody’s going to have this guy if he gets too bad.”

37:40

Q. And you’re going down a spiritual path ever since?

R. Ever since I was a kid.

Q. You didn’t care what happened on the ??

R. No, I –

Q. ??

R. Yes, I had a - I was lucky. I was lucky – I had good parents, that’s one thing. I had good parents. They kept me clean. And of course that may be something another individual may have to find out for themselves; they’ll have to protect themselves more.

38:15

Q. All these stories and situations – Augie? explained this?? ?? ?? all these things seem to have something in common, ?? you really have a need ?? ?? ?? A lot of people have an interest in those subjects, you know, like studying the new physics and ?? meditation and that sort of thing. But it’s not, they’re not necessarily ?? an answer to is there life after death, and – it’s interesting to have a perspective on – I need to know those things, but it’s not a burning desire to ?? ?? ?? Can you really study and say your situation or – just having an interest rather than a burning desire to need to know, or to alter my state?

39:16

R. Well, in the first place, I don’t think you can think about any subject, whether it’s philosophic, spiritual or metaphysical, without going to the root. It’s just like – you’re chasing back – you go back, and – if you want to know something about meditation, for instance, there’s a lot of material written on meditation. And some people think meditation is sitting around thinking about girls. Or, you know, just having peace.

For instance, to give you an example, the TM formula for meditation was to pronounce a word. And the word was a sonorous word that ended mostly in “ng”. Boing, boing,boing, or – who knows? Now this had a pacifying effect on the individual body and mind. and so – you can’t advance through that. You’re taking somebody’s word for it – these are supposed to be experts. You’ve got to know for yourself. You’ve got to be suspicious, even: How many of these felloes are phony?

40:31

One of the things that you want to – one of the symptoms you have to watch for – it’s really unfair to say that, because rich men can also be enlightened – but, if they’ve got money, why did they go to the bother, if it were a greater value. So there are little things that you can almost – they’re like symptoms to look for a disease – but in the business of chasing anything back, when you talk about meditation – meditation will happen automatically. Meditation is the thoughts that – like the answers to those questions. If you’ll start answering those questions, then you’ll be meditating. You’ll think, “Wow, I never thought about that. So let’s think about it.”

41:16

But there’s no point – as I said, there’s no point in thinking unless you know who’s thinking. There’s no point in tolerating thoughts if they’re caused by outside entities. So if you’re studying thought, if it’s only meditation, you’ve got to analyze thought: “What is thought? “ You find out that you can’t control it. Your mind takes off in a certain direction – it’s like a goat when it gets downwind on another goat when it’s breeding time. We’re attracted. Our mind’s attracted to certain pleasures and things.

So we’ve got to bypass that and say, “Hey, where in the hell did that come from?” And, “What happens to me?”

[ side 2 ends at 42:04

File 3

File 3 – 46 minutes.

[break in tape]

[question missing]

00:00

Yes, but what is it, basically? You know it’s iron, but what’s iron? Well, it’s molecules What are molecules? They’re atoms? They’re force fields. What are force fields? Mental power. That’s the best definition they’ve come up with yet, that force fields are composed of mental power.

I mentioned the electrons – if you read The Dancing Wu Li Masters - these photons are intelligent; they convey messages to each other at the speed, or faster than the speed of light. Now couldn’t they carry some messages? If we ever get on to those [this] nobody will be able to cheat on their income tax.

Q. ??

R. Right, right.

Q. In physics they have had experiments where an electron appears from nowhere and disappears to nowhere. So it’s obvious they came from somewhere, but you can’t tell where.

01:11

R. I’ll give you an example about the – just recently in the last twenty years [?] they’ve come up with the black hole in space theories. Which they claim are real – they can observe them out in the distance Now Blavatsky, the Theosophist, the founder of Theosophy, practically, she writes of the old texts from back in Tibet and China, in which they measured time by the yugas, which I think are 360,000 years.

01:48

And they talked of the great inbreathing and the outbreathing of the universe. Now this is utterly amazing by [for] people who had no knowledge of – they had no telescopes even, two thousand or three thousand years ago. But they had a composite – not just one little remark they made – they had a whole composite thing about time. And they had it in tremendously greater eras – the yuga was 360,000 years, and then those were divided into smaller components. But they recognized back then, the black holes in space, they called it the inbreathing of pralaya, the period of pralaya.

02:41

So this had to come about by – my understanding, and the only thing I can think of – even if somebody came down in a fiery chariot and said, “Here’s what’s upstairs,” or else their intuition developed it. And I think if you – what you can do, if a person is a – I’ve always been more of a scientific mind. I realize that science is a snake with its tail in its mouth – meaning that it goes nowhere. Because stuff that was – the truth in science years ago is now no longer the truth.

I studied under the valence theory in chemistry; now they’ve got the bond theory – that’s the last one I heard of. And so the truths of yesterday are changing with knowledge. That – there’s a basic observation that you can make, when things happen according to a certain pattern, that indicate that it’s not what it’s cracked up to be. You know, we’ve got a theory – this is what we don’t take into consideration. That all science today is composed of theories; even Einstein’s relativity was a theory, it wasn’t proven. But at the time he brought it forth it was just a mathematical theory.

Truth

04:06

But I think if you have to – if a person’s looking for he truth – I say everybody is. I say everybody is looking for the truth. you go down to the steel mill – they’re all trying to make a better grade of steel; they’re trying new alloys and all sorts of things. That’s truth. But once a person starts after truth in any field, it has to go back to basics – who’s looking at the steel? Who can you trust? Who can you trust? When I was a kid I went to church and I thought these people were infallible. You know. They’re not infallible – they’re making a living. So consequently, I’ve got to go and find out for myself, that’s all.

04:51

So you read a bunch of books. And you get a place in the country – get away from it completely, go out there and sit and think. And the coordination occurs then – you run the rubbish past the screen again; until you sort out the thing that is less rubbish.

05:09

The process of [?] truth is discovered is not by direct attack upon knowledge. It’s caused by backing away from error. We have no direct road to truth. The only thing we can do is build a road away from nonsense, garbage. And once you do that – in other words, you do it with your life. If you’ve got certain things that you do, you should say, “This is garbage. There’s no reason for me doing this; it’s taking my energy.” You back away from it, you think clearly.

You quit smoking, you quit drinking, quit acting like an animal. And then you can think. And you don’t have to go to church. All you do is sit down and think about it inside yourself, and yyou know it.

06:00

I think the whole path – what I call the path is – I don’t pretend to be a religious person. I have nothing but bad write-ups for [them]. I studied to be a priest – I’m glad I got out as young as I did. I was only about seventeen when I finally broke out. I hunted the gurus – I found the gurus were just a fancier shade of clipsters. I mean, a lot of them. A lot of them.

But of course, we are a nation that loves clipsters. We love to believe the impossible. I couldn’t hardly believe this – there was a – I was out in California one time, and there was a woman out there who had a tremendous congregation – her name was Claire Prophet. And I kind of sensed that she was as phony as a two [three] dollar bill. So I talked to a fellow out there who knew her and I said, “How can that woman get out there with no knowledge and no message, indoctrinate all those people ...” She had a great big spread out there on Mulholland Drive, and they’d come out there every Sunday. And she was making millions off of them.

07:20

And I said, you know, “You try to be honest with people and it gets nowhere. But here she’s telling you, ‘’Oh, we’re all going to be happy together.’ It’s all hoopla.” And he looked at me and he said, “She followed a simple rule of thumb of business: don’t advertize your losses.” In other words, if you have a bad showing, you only had a hundred people show up – tell them you had five thousand. Because then, four thousand people come out to see the five thousand, and then of course you’ll have four thousand the next time.

08:03

So – I’ve done this [?] all my live. IP have gone into every cult that I thought was halfway sensible. I don’t have bad words for all of them, believe me. There are some of them that are nonprofit, they don’t make any money. And I never believed that a person should live off another man’s money. IP believe that a man – just like myself: I’m retired, but I’m a contractor, and I didn’t get to write any books until I was fifty years of age because I was busy raising a family. But I never charged for anything except for the light bill. You know, we’d have meetings and say, “Let’s chip in and pay the light bill,” or whatever; they rent you the room, or something like that.

But I made up my mind that I would never keep a preacher and I would never charge. Because that’s the only way you can have your – look people in the eye. Because the – well, you know what’s going on, everybody in the country knows what’s going on: this is the day of the million-dollar grab. Everybody – they don’t grab hundred dollar bills anymore, they grab a billion when they go.

09:23

So consequently, this thing – you got a Pure Food and Drug law. But we have no drug against lying in psychology and religion. And thank God there are no checks and balances on it, because then we’d be killing each other. If we don’t let the liars get away with it just the same as the honest people, why then there’d be bloodbaths. So it’s a necessary evil I guess.

It serves its purpose. Not everything’s bad. Some people lean, and they can only lean. There are other people who fight. I chose to fight. And I turned all my meanness into determination.

Q, ??

10:21

R. Yeah, it’s a relative dimension, yeah.

Q.  ?? some people have, in my experience  ?? everybody’s different but ?? same? reality or knowledge ...

R. No, the funny thing is, when certain things occur, there’s a common denominator. That’s the reason I understood the man. Because – just because he sees a certain section of history. In other words, General Lee and General Grant are in their graves; they’re not out there in front of him. But he’s watching them. See what I mean? So if you analyze that just for a minute, he’s analyzing something that’s presented to him.

Just like we’d see a picture of Lee and Grant, or we’d see some movie star who’s dead, Clark Gable. That isn’t Clark Gable – the man’s no longer here. But the – so consequently, people react according to what their – a multi-colored filter, you might say. And they react differently. But the key thing is always the same – the knowledge that – different experiences, they come in different levels.

Gurdjieff had way of categorizing. the instinctive man, the emotional man, the logical man (the scientist and mathematician) and the philosophic man.

12:01

The instinctive man is a person who lives to live. He’s sanguine [type] and he loves to eat, to drink, to have sex, to laugh, to be boisterous and so on. And that’s life to him. Life to him is – it’s like the puppies bouncing around over in the woods. And he’s selfish – he’s very selfish, or she.

And then the emotional man is the step above that. And that’s when this instinctive man gets religion, or falls in love. And if he gets religion, Christ is his lover. He finds something greater than himself. And only when a man finds something greater than himself dose this here ego of all this fun-making disappear. Or it diminishes. Now he’s elevated on a different plane and he feels better for it.

And if he falls in love he finds out, he feels there’s nothing as significant as the person – when I say “he” in this instance, it applies to women as well; I don’t like to go through this paranoid routine of naming all the sexes, all six of them.

13:22

And of course after he languishes in this love thing for awhile: he loves his children and he thinks his children love him as much as he loves them, but the kids grow up and kick him in the face, and the wife kicks him out, and gets a younger man or whatever. then he realizes that his values have been – he’s been projecting his values, instead of having actually seeing them, actually knowing them. He realizes he’s being used by nature, he’s no longer needed by nature.

13:55

So then maybe he gets another form of religion before he dies; and that’s when he gets the emotional religion. He becomes a born-again Christian or something, or he goes to a guru and throws himself at the feet of the guru.

But when he transcends that emotional thing, then he says, “This is all nonsense; I’m going back and I’m going to analyze the Bible and prove it right or wrong,” or, ‘I‘m going to make a liar out of this preacher. I’ll find out who’s telling the truth. And I’ll get into something that’s scientific, and something that’s ?? something that’s believing.” So what does he do? He becomes an astrologer, or he becomes a numerologist. Because he figures that those are hard figures he can work with. And maybe he can find through studying astrology – who made the zodiac, the first one.

14:53

And ultimately, after many years of that, he finds out that that was an ego trip: he’s proud of his brain and he thinks he’s going to do all this with his brain.

So the next step is – you don’t know where to go. You look under every rock. You just start examining all of the religions of the world. This book, incidentally [Profound Writings East and West] is excerpts of the ancient books, and the reason we put it together is because they’re individually not available. I had a hard time all my life trying to find the Diamond Sutra, for instance, or the Upanishads. And these are writings that take you clear back to where the first con games were played.

15:45

Of course, there are different stories of enlightenment. There‘s poetry of Francis Thompson. Francis Thompson was an Englishman who had as profound or more profound enlightenment that any yogi in Tibet. He was a devout Christian, but he was also a devout drunk. And trauma brought him through.

16:13

Does anybody know the Juice? in Columbus? Guess not. I used to know them, and I used to spend some time talking to them about Bill Wilson, who was the founder of Alcoholics Anonymous. Elegant Sayings was another one. The Himalayas of the Soul. Those are the ancient ones. Voice of the Silence. What is the other one? Bhagavad Gita.

16:53

It shows you that what those people were thinking back then, it makes us almost ashamed that we’re piddling with what we’re piddling with. When those people knew – they didn’t have the mathematical education, they had very little scientific knowledge, two thousand years before Christ – but they had a profound philosophy.

And strangely enough, the more our technology develops, the more complicated our technology develops, the greater are our egos, collective and individual become. We think that we’re powerful people: we’re going to change society – that’s the big king? We will only change that which was already planned to be changed, in order to change itself. We just – the only thing we can do is predict it; we’ll not change anything.

18:02

Q. ??

18:17

R. No, I wouldn’t. That’s a question I wanted you to answer. But don’t you get the point? Doesn’t that pose to you that there are two people? So it’s a schizoid thing, but it’s a good schizoid thing if you’re getting profit from it.

What happened to me – the reason that I keep repeating these things – when I went off, went out the window, so to speak – I was in Seattle at the time – I saw myself. I saw myself on earth. Now I’m not saying it was accurate, but this was an amazing thing. And then I said, I couldn’t see my feet, but I knew I was watching.

19:05

So which is the real observer? The real observer was the man who was watching. And when you become an observer, when you start to watch your actions – you’re starting to watch the animal, and you become what is the opposite of the animal.

19:27

Q. ??

R. I can’t hear you too well.

19:46

Q. It seems like everything I’m hearing, it’s just kind of brushing the surface, and what we’re all? going to have to understand – if we are to understand the meaning of what you’re talking about, until we actually ?? ?? ??

19:59

R. No, no. No, no. I can’t – what happens is that – this can’t be communicated. We can do this for two solid years without – if we could go without eating? and? sleeping – and you wouldn’t learn anything, for [from] talking. But when you’re face to face with it, you’ll know it.

Now I’m not saying – that sounds like, again, that I’m brushing the surface. But I can show you, introduce you to people who had one second of contact, just a few seconds of contact – they knew. That’s the way it happens. And that happens – in any of these experiences. In other words you don’t learn, you become.

20:48

See, what you’re almost demanding of me, is that you allow yourself to be distracted by life, and then you say to me, “Why don’t you make sense?” And I say, “Why don’t you quit being distracted by life, and become sense?” Then, when your mind is prepared to receive, then it will open up, and when somebody says something you’ll see the honesty and the truth behind it. And the next time another door opens up. See? It’s a progressive thing.

21:20

But I can’t – I don’t – the reason for the “koan” (as they say in Zen) – the koan – nobody believes what they’re told; they say, “Give me proof.” And I can only say, “Make your life a search for truth.” Don’t say, “Give it to me.” It can’t be given. You can’t get it like a possession; you have to become it. When man knows God, he is God.

21:49

Q. ??

R. You are getting it. This is as close as you may get. There ain’t too many of us around. [Forum Part 4 ends]

Forum Part 5

22:07

Q. Don’t you think the difference between like these out-of-body experiences and say dreams or even an astral trip that ... ?

R. I’m going to tell you something. The acid trip is a departure from the outside ego. And some of the people who – for instance Paul [last name?] – I met Paul about ten years ago, and some of the people who had taken just a little bit, maybe not become addicted, who had been into acid and seen another dimension, and through that dimension they realized that it was as good as this one. And not because it was pleasurable, but because it was real – there was some message, they don’t know how to decipher because they didn’t go into it with the idea of deciphering it.

22:58

But when they say that – [whether it was] pot – sometimes it will affect people – garbled syllables – I don’t think it goes for the heavy drugs; IP think the heavy drugs are strictly destructive. But Timothy Leary for instance – some of those guys were psychiatrists and stuff – they said, “Hey, this is the cure. This is it. This is the truth.”

23:21

Well, it wasn’t. But one thing it certainly was, it showed that there was a dimension besides this relative dimension that we labor in now. And with that as a background, they said, “Tell me more. What’s – show me how to get into ...”

Now if they weren’t too deep, if they weren’t too completely blasted – and that meant that – I saw that, in 1972, I saw that the door would open for some people. And I said this is the time to go out to the universities and see how many I can salvage.

23:57

Because they had – that type of dope was an intuitional thing. It’s an intuitional thing. It’s confused – it’s a confusing thing but still it’s intuitional. But it doesn’t come in the English language. There’s no explanation that comes with the package.

There’s somebody over there ...

24:16

Q. ??

R. The ultimate observer is God. Now “God” is a word. Now God in my estimation – if you want to take it as fiction, or whatever you want to take it as – is the ultimate destiny of man – hopefully every man. But it’s not the totality. It’s not the totality. And I can’t tell you what – if there is any – I was just talking about it earlier – that when this happened I realized that I was a total consciousness. And I thought, “This is everything. This is everything. What is nothing?” And I fell into an abyss. I thought, “Oh, oh. This is nothing.” And wound up back in the hotel room. Where I – I came back to my consciousness then, my mundane consciousness.

25:26

Q. What organ or part of body do you think the soul of man resides? The heart, the head?

R. None of them. None of them. There’s certain parts – you have to – see that has shifted down through the centuries. The Greeks used to think it was in the liver. And then of course – I think they thought it because the – once they found the heart, then when you stab a guy in the heart he died, well that must have been his life center. But basically, your real life is outside your body, in my estimation.

26:09

We have a – again, I’m going by analysis of operations and that sort of thing. You can have a man – whereas repeated? – my kid brother had a – they were operating on him. And he saw everybody there, and when he came back he described the operation to the doctor. And not only that, his wife – she was a rabid Holy Roller, I don’t know what you’d call her – and he was raised a Catholic. So when they called to find out what religion he was, they said they didn’t expect him to live – I told them he was raised a Catholic and he’d probably want a priest.

27:00

And it was out in the desert, near an Army base, so they called and got a Catholic chaplain to come out and give him the ;last rites. And when he got there, [my brother’s] wife was anti-priest: her religion believes that all priests are demons and devils. So she started cursing him out right there at the bedside, trying to drive him out. And [my brother] knew all of that – watched, knew their motions they went through and everything, and told them.

27:31

So consequently – the only reason I’m going through this is – this means, and Moody’s book – get some of this material and read it, because Moody is factual. He had something on Geraaldo Rivera’s show – he had a little show on there about four or five people who survived death. And it was interesting because they fall into certain categories. It’s like I was mentioning before: when a guy recovers from a certain type of life, he’ll tell a different kind of experience – it seems to be peculiar to his – whether he’s instinctive or logical or whatever it is.

28:16

But these fellows manifested something, of memory. Moody himself was astrally projected, if you want to call it that – he claims it was like a death experience. You remember where you were, you remember what you look like, you remember what the streets look like. And he said that when he was travelling over the streets in this town, he recognized people who he knew, on the sidewalk. And checked with them – he could check them out later. He knew where – he was headed to Washington DC, he said; he know what to expect.

28:55

This means that that fellow carried his synapses with him, seemingly. His synapses are in his head; if he’d have died, you would have thought he had been blotto, that there wouldn’t have been any thoughts. But he still thinking.

So this means that there’s a correlation, or correlated double – that the stuff that you learn in this life is also deposited in an astral or spiritual (the same) memory bank, the same as it’s in this bank.

29:28

So consequently, that – we realize that memory can transcend death.

29:38

And just like what’s his name – Wood – when he was conjuring up the battle of Gettysburg – of course, the only way to check would have been to get some evidence of stuff he saw.

29:57

But there is evidence, there’s a lot of evidence now that we pass out and we see things with our eyes shut. Unconscious, medically dead, even. Those guys in this Geraaldo show – I can’t pronounce his name – the guy who got his nose broke for getting into politics. But those people had a common thing: two of them said that they passed through a tunnel, and at the end of the tunnel there was a bright light. One of them said that the light was God. the other one said that there was a man there, which he considered an angel, that was leading him into another dimension, another field.

30:42

And – did any of you see that [show]? There was a lady there, I don’t know whether she was a psychiatrist or what, but she made the remark, she said that the greatest enemy to all of this spiritual investigation are the federal-funded psychiatrists and psychologists. She said it [they] seem to be trained to writing this down as the disease of the mind, and that anybody who survives death should be forced to have psychiatric care. This is almost like in the days when they fought wars over religion. Nuts? ?? experiment.

31:28

Q. After you went? to the ultimate, I was in a bookstore, and I asked him? if he had read one of your books. And he said ?? ?? ?? Richard Rose. And I said ?? And he said, “Well, you don’t really consider ?? a true Zen master.” What do you think of that?

Q2. What bookstore was that?

R. What’s his name? I’ll tell you his name.

Q. It was one of those – west side.

R. Yeah, that’s him, duplex. He offered very graciously one time – see, at one time he was some kind of authority in the local Theosophical Society here. And somebody moved in, I think his name was Sivert, and took over. And he went back to his bookstore. And he made the remark to me – I met him in Pittsburgh – he made the remark to me, “Well, I’d like to hear you speak, Mr. Rose, and if I like what you say, we’ll invite you over to the Theosophical Society for a talk.” he was a rather pompous guy. So I hope he didn’t like my talk; I didn’t want to go to his Theosophical Society under pressure.

33:01

Q. ?? life after death ??

R. I don’t know about Shirley MacLaine, but believe me, it seems like a long drag if that Ramtha guy took 26,000 years to learn English.

Q. You disbelieve all that stuff?

R. Oh, this is the age of creation – create anything. And the bigger the lie, the better. The public will believe the biggest lie.

33:36

And if you’re wealthy then he must know something; so the wealthier you get the better you are. But it’s like crystals – anybody [who] can pay attention to crystals the way people are doing today is a – it doesn’t say much for evolvement or evolution. Believe me, the desert rats out in California two hundred years ago would have known something about the beneficial values of crystals, because they had to dig through them to find gold. They chose the gold.

34:12

But anyhow, it’s just the idea that we’re in a creative – we’re trying to create God in our own image and likeness: “God wouldn’t do that, because it would be unjust.” God might like to eat humans – how do they know, until they know what his essence is? He’s supposed to act like us. He created us in his own image and likeness, and we were created in the image and likeness of monkeys – it goes way back – and dogs, perhaps.

34:48

So you have to – people are lazy-minded, lazy-minded. They can’t help iy. Sometimes it takes every hour of your day to make a living. so what can you do? But I can’t see endorsing every – in fact, one thing I’ll say is that every movement on this earth answers a question for somebody. that’s important. Now I’m not saying that everybody goes down the same way [path]. In other words, what may be an instinctive man by some emotional religion, guru-deal, or something like that – is lifted out of his puddle, and he becomes a better person. And I’ve seen people who have quit drinking – like the formula for getting cured of drinking is to find somebody whom you can dedicate yourself to, instead of yourself; get off your ego trip. so you pick Jesus Christ – nothing wrong with that.

36:01

So – then you’ve got people who are a little bit more scientific and they become Spiritualists. But I made my rounds of the Spiritualist phenomena, and I found some genuine phenomena; genuine – but they didn’t answer the questions I talked to those entities – they materialized, they were genuine, materialized – right here in Columbus, a place called White Lilly Chapel in Delaware, Ohio, right up the road, north of here.

36:36

I saw them materialize. Some of them were supposed to be relatives of [?] dead people. [But] you talk to them and they didn’t have any answers. Except, “Yes, yes.” “Is my brother Joe there?” “Yes, yes, he’s here. he says hello.” Well, go to hell, Joe, I wanted something more than that. [laughs]

37:02

We had a fellow in Wheeling who went to a Spiritualist church – he had lost his – he had worked in a brokerage hose, and he had rolled up close to a quarter of a million dollars. His girlfriend was working there, and she had got, you know, a little bit of inside-trading information and got a little bit, maybe forty thousand. And back in the depression days that was worth a lot of money.

So what happened was, the head of their brokerage office took their stock – they borrowed it to sell it to somebody, figuring they’d replace it. That’s what they do when you’re selling short, with somebody else’s stock. But they just took their stock out of the till and sold it. And instead of it bouncing back up as he expected, it went down, or it went up, I can’t remember which – and he couldn’t get it back, couldn’t raise the money. So they lost it.

37:54

This guy’s name was Hazlett, the head of the brokerage firm. So this man actually at the age of sixty was broke, he was wanting to get married to this girl who had worked in the brokerage house for twenty or forty [thirty?] years, and they couldn’t get married; they didn’t have even the price of the ring.

38:09

So he was very bitter about Hazlett. So he said he went to a Spiritualist thing. And I think a lot of time, ever you ever read Spraggett – there’s a guy name Allen Spraggett who wrote a book on Spiritualism, about the one out here – it’s a muckraking of [Camp] Chesterfield [in] Indiana. I’ve been there, and what he says is very, very accurate.

What was it he said? Anyhow he went there and said – some guy must have done some research and found out he had a friend by the name of Hazlett, that had run this brokerage firm. Wheeling is a small town, you know. So he said, “Oh, we’ve got a spirit here that wants to talk to you.” He said, “Yeah? That’s good.” And he said, “It’s a man named John. He says he knows you.” He said, “I don’t know anybody by the name of John. Can’t think of anybody by the name of John.” “Yeah” – he had to make it good, he knew it was Hazlett. “Well, his last name is something like Hazelnut.” “Hazlett.” “Yeah, yeah,” is what the spirit said.

39:19

So – “Oh, John Hazlett! Tell him to go to hell!” [laughs] Here’s a guy who had died, you know, and owed him a million bucks, or a quarter million, when he died. So he got to tell the pseudo-spirit off at least.

39:42

Q. You had mentioned little earlier, about the LSD trip where ?? ?? childrn maybe a different religion than from? the? root? their mom and dad?? ??? If you have a really – for example I was having a really vivid dream that didn’t?? seem relevant to anything I may have experienced. They seem very ?? real ??

40:12

R. Well, because I don’t know the exact thing that occurred to you I can’t say. But I’ll tell you, you have to be cautious about tokens or – checking your intuition so to speak. If we get totally dependent on a certain line of information like that you’ll get fed false information, sometimes, for? any? wreck? you.

40:39

As I said, if you can see for a little moment the fact that we are basically – this is an agricultural setup; we’re here for fertilization, we’re here for keeping the human race going. And why are we here for keeping the earth green, fertilized, and that sort of thing? – what purpose? – we don’t know. The average person doesn’t know.

So consequently there’s an inclination to buck the harness, get out of the harness – let’s quit feeding the fertilization process. And when you do that, immediately, whether it’s programming or another line of – whoever is profiting from the [our] loss of energy will start to put ideas in your head. And you’ve got to be able to credit, you know, find out where they’re coming from.

Some people will actually hear voices, and they think, “Oh, that must be a spiritual [thing].” Ha. Be careful. It’s better if you don’t hear them.

41:50

Q. ??

R. Well, they used to call it instinct, with animals; the animal had an instinct.

Q. ??

R. Well, I wouldn’t say that the animal instincts are negating; I think in some respects the animal has it all over us Because we’re cursed with language; the animal isn’t. The animal has correct impressions. They risk their life on it: the deer goes in to drink with the lion, only when she knows the lion’s belly is full. That’s the instinct. But that’s an intuition that saves their life.

42:42

But intuition – you’ll know it. It isn’t a mundane – you know – to give you an example, like I said, there are people who know, who have got an intuition when the husband’s in the beer joint. They’ll even call and get the right beer joint. You don’t want to gauge your life on that power – it won’t work all the time, you’ll go into a real trap sometime.

43:09

But the intuition about your correct mental thinking is what I’m talking about. Because this mental thinking – the esoteric business is subjective, it’s not tangible, you can’t put it in a test tube. So consequently it has to be tested and very subtle and carefully thought-out methods, to see if you’re going in the right path.

Of course, I really believe that intention – my feeling is that you don’t have to do much checking or anything like that: if your intentions are right. If your intentions are right, you’ll automatically put a watchdog in the computer.

44:01

That’s the reason I say that it’s very important if a person is on what we refer to as a spiritual path that they keep their ego out. And you can’t do things for money if you’ve got – when you get money into it then you’ve got an ego into it. So there’s always a danger that you’re going to start and try to – number one, I don’t believe in trying to convince people, I believe that there are certain people – certain people may be, perhaps, sitting here tonight who have a destiny ahead of them in this regard. And if that’s true, they’ll ultimately know it, and they’ll take action.

But as far as to sell a fellow a bill of goods – I will, like I said – I read that thing purposefully because I think it gives you a new perspective on many subjects that people never think about. About things that we define, such as pleasure, and right and wrong, and that sort of thing.

45:03

Q. ??

R. I really didn’t hear you – I don’t know if it’s my ears or ...

Q. ??

45:22

R. Conditioning? Conditioning is the enemy. I don’t know if I mentioned this before – I was talking about the Sufi book – was I telling you about that? Maybe not. Sufism is an old – it’s almost like Zen, in the Arab countries. This is a book put out by Idries Shah, and he was quoting one of those old prophets or whatever you call them. And I was amazed at the wording – he even used the word “conditioning” – as the worst enemy of mankind, is conditioning.

In other words, we take a pure and simple soul, called a baby, and we start right along with them, to condition them, to get them to believe certain ...

[ end of tape 3 ]

File 4

File 4 – 29 minutes.

00:00

... [the parents have to] keep the kid out of the penitentiary. We’ve got to live in the sardine can. So consequently you have go be conditioned to live in a sardine can. So you’ve got to transform that kid into some kind of a pretzel.

In my estimation, a child is born with the memory of God, or the previous essence. And he’s also born with a tremendous intuition, because they can learn real fast whether to trust you or not. They can also learn real fast where their dinner is. But the older that child gets, the more it is seduced by education until it thinks that it has to believe everything. I remember – I used to [work for] be in the Navy but I ran into some guys in the Army one time, and one of them was a sergeant. And he kept saying, “You better believe it, you better believe it, you better believe it.”

00:56

I don’t know if you’ve ever heard them say that. But I said, “Why? Why do I have to believe something, to go out and get my head blown off? Let’s just blow the head off – don’t give that stuff – I don’t want to hear it.” See? I don’t have to believe anything. We’re animals out there, fighting, that’s all.

01:14

But it seems like – we think that this is necessary – and people talk of discipline – what do you mean by that? There’s no greater discipline than a man who disciplines his own life. He’ll never be much harm to anybody else – because he won’t have reason to; he’s got values. But people who talk about discipline are generally talking about discipline from somebody else. We’re going to educate everybody; everybody’s going to be educated. Another hundred and fifty billion [dollars?] he says.

[Forum Part 5 ends]] 01:52

Forum Part 6

Q. ?? I wonder if ?? you talk today ?? benefits

02:10

R. Well, I can only tell you – I got stuck in the emotional thing, when I was about 12 years of age. Because I loved my mother and she was a Catholic. And I thought she was infallible, like the Pope. Because all mothers are, especially good mothers; you put your trust in them. so I went away to be a priest, and that was the emotional thing. I thought I would find God, and God would be a lovely creature.

And I found that these people were just humans, very miserable humans, one or two saints among them, the rest idiosexuals, two homosexuals, who the priests had warped and twisted, because they had – they just couldn’t adapt to it, they couldn’t adapt to total celibacy.

03:05

So I thought, “Hey, there’s something wrong. Where’s God? Where’s he watching this stuff?” Then I noticed that they had a brutality about them. They didn’t want you questioning them. Like you people are asking me questions – they didn’t want that. you had to believe. If you didn’t believe – see, I was just a kid, twelve years old when I went there – you got your face slapped, for being a Doubting Thomas.

03:33

So I – the result was that later I got to studying some other books. I got to looking elsewhere. And I went through the whole gamut; I went into Spiritualism, that’s how I came to see the – I went to a, groped around until I found a genuine materialization. And I saw the illogic of that – I mean it was a – there were entities, believe me. And don’t ever get the idea that we’re alone on this planet. We’re not alone. I don’t know how dense it is, but there are other intelligences here. Some of them can become visible. And this is not fiction; I’ve literally seen it, and witnessed an intelligence from them. They weren’t dead people. they were what they call “cabinet guides”.

04:26

It’s a whole story. In the Albigen Papers I mention it somewhere; , I don’t know how much I say about it.

04:33

But the thing was that I tried by sheer force of logic to, and through the approach to the mind. [?] Now this is a very good way to get into the, your essence – to study the mind, study your own mind and observe your own thoughts. this little book that I wrote called Psychology of the Observer is just such an exercise; and it’s watching your own thought. And if you watch your own thought you become an external [?] observer, more and more. You watch all phases of thinking.

05:16

It’s like Hubert Benoit – I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of Benoit and The Supreme Doctrine, , but what we have – we have a bipolar mind; we have good and evil, black and white, and all this sort of thing. And these are creations of the relative mind. And in reality there is no such thing as black and white – all we have is a scale, somewhere between two extremes; if you put black and white on a straight line, black down here, and white – in between you’re going to get gray, all different shades of gray. So you don’t have clear-cut, hard definitions

05:57

But the observation of your thinking processes, if you pursue it, takes you to a place where your head explodes. I always say that the spiritual path is the thing of fattening up the head, until it’s filled enough with data, until [?]you can chop it off. When you chop your head off then, you know, in other words I’m talking about killing the mind, or stop thinking. It just – out of pure frustration it just stops. And in that moment when it stops, everything enters in.

06:38

Now I don’t know whether that answers your question or not. But what happened was, that’s almost a line [?]. Between the seminary and the realization I finally had, there was quite a bit of exploration and looking into cults, and joining the yogis. I was a vegetarian; I didn’t smoke; I was totally celibate. And at times I thought, “This is a goofball adventure I’m on. I better quit and get married.” You know. “Because who in the hell is going to have me after a few more years of this?”

07:16

But I didn’t. I’d always be back on track I’d be walking down the street and find myself in the library, reading another book, and starting all over; maybe looking up some guru. There’s been [There were] some good people; I criticize a lot of the movements, but were some good movements, people who were sincere.

07:36

Q. ??

08:05

R. You’re just begging? an answer. Basically I advise everybody to look under every rock. That isn’t necessarily education. When we think of education, we’re talking about somebody brainwashing somebody from the front of the room, saying, “Multiply two times two and four times four. That’s more or less what I found out studying chemistry, that this guy says, “Here, this is the way you work this chemical equation.” I said, “Why?” He says, “Because of te valence.” I couldn’t understand that he was talking about. I still didn’t. But I knew how to look at the cookbook – they used to call the chemical handbooks “cookbooks”. Look at the cookbook and you could do whatever they told you to do and come out the way they predicted. So all a chemist is, is a man who knows how to consult the handbook.

08:54

But that’s education. But what I’m talking about, looking under rocks, that’s real education; that is experience, that is first-hand knowledge. Because when I say “under every rock” I mean every sect – if your intuition tells you, “Hey, maybe these people have something.” Ok, go to the bother to check them out. Check them out, and don’t lack the courage to move on. Like I said, they’re here for a purpose – but I’m always afraid they’re here for a purpose of inhibiting progress, rather than promoting it.

09:34

The greatest spiritual events that happen in a person’s life don’t come from diploma, the glorious diploma; It comes from misery and agony and despair. And then the light that shines afterwards makes it all worthwhile.

09:57

Q. ??

R. You’re in a lazy stage. [laughs] You should never give up. Never give up.

10:20

Q. ??

R. You’ll know what happens, yeah.

Q. ?? negative ??

R. I don’t really know what you mean by a negative state of mind. A negative state of mind could be philosophically negative, it could be that you have appetites that are negative to advancement, or something of that sort. But if you know what they are then you know how to circumvent them. If you know you’ve got a negative state of mind, you know how to circumvent it. Because anything of that sort is – the symptoms are all germane to you, and they’re all privy to your memory and your knowledge of your past, and that sort of thing.

11:30

I don’t know what – a lot of times, things that people think are negative are really positive. Really positive. For instance, I’ll give you an example. When I was in my twenties, as I tell you, I’d get disgusted because there wasn’t the light – I didn’t hear the bugles; no angels. And I’d think, “I’m not spiritual. I’d better pick myself out a girl and get married.” [But] they wouldn’t have me. They wouldn’t have me. And I thought, ‘Geez, what kind of a curse am I under?” ?? ?? ?? I had a halo then. too. They wouldn’t have me.

12:03

But, you know, years later I felt, “My, what a blessing.” Because if I hadn’t have survived until – what was it, 1947, thirty years of age - if I had got married, that would have been the end of it; my ear would have been attuned to squalling babies. there would have been no room for any thinking. You’ve got to think when you come home from work. It’s too much of a distraction.

12:34

But I should bring this out. Rose was not self-made; Rose had help. I had help. And I realized this in my experience. there was something that led me every step of the way. There was something that put obstacles up and things that – I really wanted the obstacles, I wanted the girl. I never had the desire to drink or anything like that. You’d project on some meta-protoplasm and think it was superior.

I wrote a little poem about it, you know:

"This is my all, my god, my soul!" "This is mine!" Better say of this choice nebula of dust, "Beautiful, is this fond mirror of my lust."

13:37

Q. Do you feel like ???

R. Umm, I learned a lot. I think I learned a lot. What I experienced in the last fifteen years – in fact I got surprised when little things came up, like healing. Healing someone. That really surprised. Because I didn’t know? it was in the books. But I think what it is – you learn more about teaching as a job in itself.

14:11

For instance, when I come before an audience, I have to be able to speak in your language. And that’s the reason you may sense it – there’s a difficulty there, and I’m – everybody wants to know, “Please explain to me, give me a picture, paint it on the wall, what this experience is.” [Then,] “okay, now give me the prescription, I’ll go down to the drugstore or whatever it takes, and I’ll take the pills.” You know, they want to make everything objective and material. And you can’t do it. So consequently, this thing I read [the koans] – to me, it’s more important to me that you start thinking. than [?] if you just start asking questions, you’re going to forget tomorrow.

14:56

But if you get that lecture of questions and red it once in awhile, it’s going to cause you to think; because it’s looking at life from another view. Now it’s not just another view, it’s a more accurate view. Because I/ maintain – I believe that those questions are valid, about “What is thought?” We’re thinking all the time, and we take it for granted that we know what thought is.

12:21

Q. ??

R. I have no perspective on them. I think they’re all important, but I felt that nobody would have five questions. Now I want you to think about that. [laughs]

Q. ???

R. What?

Q. What’s the nature of what you do?

R. I write books.

Q. ??

R. We have a farm there where people come and stay; we’ve got cabins where they can go meditate or starve to death or do whatever they want to do.

16:04

Q. What are the – is there a  ?? structure ??

16:16

R. Well, no, there’s a – first of all, they have to be sincere. Then of course there’s a – people come for different reasons. For instance there’s the TAT Society, the TAT Foundation. And only TAT members come there; they become TAT members, which is, and that helps sustain the physical plant. And then there are some people who just do as they please; by that I mean, they are what you call friends of the truth, not real – they’re just damn good people we love to have them, and that sort of thing.

17:01

But then there’s the school, what I consider the root, the whole basis of the thing, are the people who are really trying to find it; and that’s the ones I’m looking for, because that’s he maximum purpose for my being. I’m not – I enjoy the people who are friendly and all that, but my life is dedicated to people who are – there’s some hope of getting them across, and getting them back to passing it on to somebody else.

17:42

Because this is the – I had a girl come to the – not a girl, she was twenty, I guess, I don’t know how old she was, maybe twenty-one, twenty, nineteen – she and her husband came down and we’d have these rapport sittings. And she had an experience. and it surprise me, because number one, she didn’t want her husband attending, she was a little bored. And she didn’t like me, because I was a little too blunt perhaps.

18:14

And so we went into another room and sat, like a Quaker or Shaker whatever they are, and wait for the Holy Ghost to whatever you want to call it – it’s a power. And she stayed in the kitchen, until it was almost over. And we – there was a man there [Frank] him and his wife were there, and this thing was settling on him. When these things happen to you, you don’t need any further proof; you know where you’re at – you know exactly that you’re on the track. And he was, this ...

18:54

Now sometimes I hate to say this, because it seems like- very few people believe it. But in the final essence I shouldn’t care, whether people believe it or not. I don’t mean it that way, but it’s just that this is what happens in a rapport meeting. But I can see, generally, a spiritual force. The closest I cam describe it is the Holy Ghost: “Where two or more are gathered in my name, I am in their midst.” But this happens when people get together, with an honest intention, a sincere intention, and with no other motives, just to find something, to find truth.

19:36

This generates – not every time, but occasionally, if everybody’s right – and I can see it, moving. It will move around, and we generally sit in a circle, and it will move around, and I’ll know who it’s going to stop on, and I’ll point. And sometimes t will knock them off the chair. That’s what happened with her – she walked into the room and nobody – it was over Frank. And it leaped across, just like a voltage, it leaped across and hit her and knocked her down.

20:14

And this is a – this type of meeting requires a certain lifestyle and dedication. You can’t come in half drunk and that sort of thing and sit down in such a meeting. So it’s the group of people that – I know that they’re dead-serious. If they’re dead serious, then that’s all I need to know.

20:46

But those are the ones who have access to the cabins, if they want to. Because the people in the group today, yet still, take a solid month off. I don’t tell them – I don’t tell anybody what to do. I have no rules, I have no doctrine; I just say if you want to get a result, try this. I don’t have – well I had a fellow in the second year, and they’ve been doing it for years. Every year they take a month off. Without eating – they go to the cabin and they don’t take any food. Sometimes they’ll take water or juice or something.

21:23

And they’ll sit there for a solid month, or maybe three weeks – no goals. But they invariably come out with a new perspective. Because they seem to have the last twelve month – it’s a gradual deterioration of the nature. [?] So that’s what goes on.

And other than that, I don’t – I’m not aware of what people are curious about [here] – so if you are curious, just ask me, and I’ll try to explain it to you.

But I believe that there’s a predictableness [predictability] about this, and I – a person isn’t around very long before I know what their susceptibility is, to something coming out, something developing.

22:19

Q. ??

R. Umm, sometimes it’s weird; sometimes it’s strange. Now this girl – she didn’t care what we were doing. She could care less. It surprised me as much as it did her, ?? the group. I don’t even know – she was antagonistic. I don’t know why she even came into the room. But we’ve had other cases similar to that, where a person, the first time they sit in a group, the thing, something happens to them.

22:54

But that sets the mind, or the person, into a – one thing, it’s like a milepost; that you realize you’re on a path. There are revelations. Only they’re not verbalized. But you find a peace of mind, the tranquility that you’ll never find any other way. I shouldn’t say any other way; there’s possibly - for a four? meetings? in church consider to be good.

23:28

But this has that one peculiar method, you might say. [the rapport sittings] This isn’t Zen, incidentally. That’s not Zen. That’s just something that we decided to do, some of the people. And it works. Now of course, what happens is that the – with this party it was traumatic; it was very traumatic. But she didn’t get clear to what I consider the final – there’s a final realization she didn’t quite reach.

24:04

But she saw the world as an illusion. This is one of the things you learn down the road, that this road is – even if you study physics you find that there’s no separation between space and time; they’re a unity. And we separate them, because we’re polar and bicameral we separate them into space and time. But our time is only germane to the sun; our day is recorded by the sun. Somebody else’s sun might turn [go around?] more slowly, so we don’t know what their consciousness would be. Duration is what I was referring to in the thing.

24:48

But there’s no – to me – I saw the need a long time ago for a place where people could go and think. It’s very difficult. I was not married [?] I tried to write The Albigen Papers – I got the notes for it for five or ten years, the notes for The Albigen Papers. It’s very difficult when you have little children around to do any thinking. You’ve got to get out. So I had a farm, so I went out on the farm. Always had a few head of cattle out there to have some excuse to go out there and spend the winter.

25:36

You know we often think, you often think about people who become – I’m not quite, very much in favor of the ascetic monks. Because they start to play another game; they start to make up another thing. And that’s the – like the old talk of theology, of the theologians trying to determine how many angels you can get on the point of a pin.

26:06

Well that sounds ridiculous, but nevertheless theology is a tremendous lot that way. that for instance the Catholic church got into all sorts of breakdowns of how many prayers you had to say to counter so many sins. Number one, I don’t believe in sin, so I don’t need the – people don’t sin, they have accidents. They’re used, they’re abused. Not by other people, but by the program they’re thrust into in this life.

People used to say, “Do you believe that you committed a sin, or that you commit sins?” I say, “I’m too damn stupid to sin.” I don’t know what’s right and wrong, in the absolute sense. What’s right is you die. What’s wrong is that’s you’re alive, perhaps. See?

26:57

Q. ??

R. Time to head for the high chaparral. And I’ve got my watch on crossways I think.

Yes? [no question] See that did it; you smothered him.

I’m glad to have met all of you. Hope to see you again someday.

Q. ??

R. Sure, go ahead.

Q. ??

R. Yes. But I’m in the Wheeling phone book, and that’s your best way oif you get down there – call somebody. That’s area code 304. Paul has it. But also these – if you’ve got a pencil, these books all have the TAT address in it. And that’s the thing to do, to always let me know. Because this is fifteen miles from Wheeling, the farm is. So consequently, it’s better for you to give a call and we’ll meet you in Wheeling, or have somebody meet you, and tell you the best way to get there. this time of the year, some of the roads aren’t as good as others.

28:30

A big snow on the ridges drifts deep; in the valleys it doesn’t, so you come up Wheeling Creek, so to speak. But if the creek iis high, then you take the ridges.

Q. ??

R. Yes, there’s some old catalogs there if you ...

Q. Thanks very much Mr. Rose.

R. You’re welcome. [applause]I appreciate it.

Q. ?? over there are some copies of past lectures and tapes, ?? free catalog ??

Footnotes

 Url:  http://direct-mind.org/index.php5?title=1986-0212-Zen-Is-Action-Columbus 

For access, send email to editors@direct-mind.org

  This is from “The Lecture of Questions”, written by Rose, copyrighted by the TAT Foundation, published in Profound Writings East and West. Page 210.  http://tatfoundation.org/profound.htm 
 Being critical of current social norms.
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serotonin 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurotransmitters 
 Al Ghazali – discussed later in this lecture.
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B._F._Skinner 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Chilton_Pearce 
 Crack in the Cosmic Egg. Pdf here: http://selfdefinition.org/psychology/ 
 Franz Hartmann in Life of Paracelsus: "Philosophy informs us that the world is made out of the will of God. If, then, all things are made out of will, it logically follows that the causes of all internal diseases are also originating within the will. All diseases, such as are not caused by any action coming from the outside, are due to a perverted action of the will in man, such as is not in harmony with the laws of Nature or God." http://selfdefinition.org/magic/paracelsus/hartmann-paracelsus-07-medicine.htm 
 “Third eye”, from Radha-Soami. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surat_Shabd_Yoga 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ectoplasm_(paranormal) 
 According to Orkin, 30 days.
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gestalt_psychology 
 Reference unknown, two possibilities are:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odile 
 Author Bulwer-Lytton, 1871: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vril
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Élan_vital 
 See Rose, Transmission Papers.
 Possible reference to Rasputin. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starets 
 Babcock & Wilcox. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Rose_(mystic) 
 Potassium-sodium??
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Science 
 The windings.
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savant_syndrome 
 Chapter ###
 PDF: http://selfdefinition.org/afterlife/ 
 Paul Wood. See 1965 newspaper clipping: http://selfdefinition.org/christian/paul-wood-story.htm
 The AA group originated from Akron
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_W. 
 Story begins page 96 in Bob Martin’s Peace to the Wanderer. PDF: http://selfdefinition.org/rose/ 
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39CV4jsdjl8 
 Prior to the atomic bombs, hundreds of thousands of civilians were killed in conventional bombing (firebombing) over Japan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_raids_on_Japan
 Mathew 6:4. Also Luke 11:9. “Ask and it will be given to you.”
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emanuel_Swedenborg 
 Elsewhere Rose mentions fish that live on the ocean floor developing lights they can see by.
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathryn_Kuhlman 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcendental_Meditation 
 Gary Zukav. PDF: http://selfdefinition.org/science/ 
 Robert Anton Wilson explains Quantum Physics: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEZtw1yt8Kc 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helena_Blavatsky 
 It’s complicated: http://davidpratt.info/secretcyc.htm 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pralaya 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valence_bond_theory 
 The more recent version of the valence theory?
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Clare_Prophet 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Gurdjieff 
 See Ouspensky, In Search of the Miraculous, chapter 4. PDF: http://selfdefinition.org/gurdjieff/ 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Thompson 
 A collection from the Upanishads.
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Leary 
 Leary and Richard Alpert were psychologists.
 Vincent.
 Also see 1988-0217-Hypnosis-Lecture-Demonstration-Akron
 Raymond Moody, Life After Life. PDF: http://selfdefinition.org/afterlife/ 
 1988 – http://selfdefinition.org/afterlife/ first 26 minutes of the video. 

Alternative location: http://ndemovies.worldispnetwork.com/ndemovies/Geraldo.wmv

 Phyllis Atwater, author, Coming Back To Life, min. 28. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P._M._H._Atwater 
 Minute 37 of video.
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirley_MacLaine 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Z._Knight#Ramtha 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritualism 
 This is a generic “Joe” – Rose’s brother Joe was still living then.
 Generally cash collateral is required.
 Spraggett’s bio – 3 page PDF:  http://selfdefinition.org/afterlife/ 
 The Unexplained, 1967.
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Chesterfield   
 "This was a fraud so crude that it was an insult to the intelligence."
 Nuclear submarine program, Babcock and Wilcox, 1947.
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediumship#Spirit_guide 
 Chapters 2 and 3.
 See Nov. 12, 1974 Obstacles, Cleveland and Oct. 23, 1974 Laws, Columbus for a detailed account.  http://direct-mind.org/index.php5?title=1974-1112-Obstacles-Cleveland

http://direct-mind.org/index.php5?title=1974-1023-Laws-Columbus

 No Wikipedia page yet (Dec. 2011). Bio here: http://www.selfdiscoveryportal.com/bzbio.htm
 Full text in PDF: http://selfdefinition.org/zen/ 
 Recap of ideas here: http://www.selfdiscoveryportal.com/bzrecap.htm 
 Primarily Radha Soami. 
 Carillon, page 48.
 Jane S.
 Matthew 18:20.
 Julian Jaynes, The Origin of Consciousness and the Bicameral Mind.

End