View source for No-chan-in-china-No-zen-in-china

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This is a worksheet in R:00-documents

Partial list No Chan in China -- Need a separate paper.

While doing [[1977-0521-Symposium-Washington-DC-Informal]]

In directory D:\Richard_Rose_TEMP\00-Documents\Huang-Po-no-chan-in-china\

have Case 11 Huang Po’s Gobbler of Dregs. 

Also check Garma Chang for reference “Garma C.C. Chang’s book – 9,000 monks in monastery – not one is enlightened; no Chan in China.”  

Cannot find and references that say 9,000 monks. Have found some that say 3,000 or so. 

Distributed: [[1992-0326-Truth-Lies-Ultimate-Reality-Pitt]]

And he made the remark, “There is no Ch’an in China.” 

Footnote: Huang Po, Blue Cliff Record, case 11:  http://www.treetopzencenter.org/HuangPosGobblers.html 
Orthodox Zen says the story is a koan. Rose takes the words literally, which is consistent with accounts of the rarity of enlightened individuals in these monasteries, and monks able to receive transmission, such as described in the story of Hui Neng.


Other locations: 

[[1976-Pittsburgh]] in the wiki.  

“No Zen in China” 


[[1975-1119-Boston-College]]

“There is no Zen without transmission, and there isn't a single man in China who can transmit.” 

[[1983-0610-Denver-Colorado-commercial-recording]]

“RR – In essence he said that there was no one capable, there was no one being enlightened in China.”  


[[1977-0405-Zen-Columbus-precursor-to-Zen-and-CS]] 

“And he said there was no Ch’an in China because there was no one able to transmit”


[[1977-0915-Zen-and-Death-Washington-DC]]

When Huang Po was giving a talk in China I don't know when he lived, a thousand years ago perhaps - he said there was no Zen (Chan) left in China. And they said, "Why? There are three thousand people in this monastery and there are monasteries all over China." He said, "There's no transmission."



Other to research

[[1991-Unitarian-Church-Raleigh]] (in process)
	they didn’t call it Zen then, it was Ch’an. And some of the monasteries held as many as nine thousand people. [not in Suzuki, or Garma Chang]


== The Wanderling ==

Can You Do It?

http://the-wanderling.com/canudoit.html

There are several classic records of Zen histories such as Ching Te Ch'uan Teng Lu (Record of the Transmission of the Lamp); Tsu T'ang Chi (Collection from the Halls of Ancestors); Wu Teng Hui Yan (Five Lamps Merged in the Source); and Ku Tsun Su Yu Lu (Records of Sayings of Ancient Venerable Adepts) that together compile information on well over 600 Zen masters. Among the masters cited within the texts, for example, are Kuei Shan (771-853) whose community numbered 1500 and produced 43 Enlightened disciples (2.8%). Hsueh Feng (822-908) 1500 community followers, 56 Enlightened disciples (3.7%). Fa Yen Wen I (885-958) never less than 1000 followers and 63 Enlightened disciples (6.3%). Yun Chu (d. 908) led a community of 1500 and produced 28 Enlightened disciples (1.8%).