View source for 1985-1102-What-Do-You-Know-For-Sure-Miami

{{Page header}}
[[Category:1980s]]
[[Category:Informal Talks]]
[[Category:Lecture of Questions]]
[[Category:Miami]]
[[Category:Has Talk Page]]
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== Data ==

<div class="datatable">

<table>
<tr><td style="width:200px;">Title
</td><td>1985-1102-What-Do-You-Know-For-Sure-Miami
</td></tr>

<tr><td>Recorded date
</td><td>November 2, 1985
</td></tr>

<tr><td>Location
</td><td>Miami, FL. Forum was at the Round Table, a monthly (?) discussion group.
</td></tr>

<tr><td>No. tapes
</td><td>Two 60 minute tapes
</td></tr>

<tr><td>Other recorders audible?
</td><td>No
</td></tr>

<tr><td>DVD number
</td><td>undistributed? need to check
</td></tr>

<tr><td>Source
</td><td>H
</td></tr>

<tr><td>No. of MP3 files
</td><td>Four files including intro:  2 min; 29 min; 32 min; 31 min.
</td></tr>

<tr><td>Total time
</td><td>93 minutes (not counting the interview)
</td></tr>

<tr><td>Transcription status
</td><td>Stub
</td></tr>

<tr><td>Published in what book?
</td><td>
</td></tr>

<tr><td>Published on which website?
</td><td>
</td></tr>

<tr><td>Remarks
</td><td>On the same tape as 1985-1015-TV-Interview-Miami (which is only 11 minutes long)

Q - classify as "Formal" or as "Informal" discussion?
</td></tr>

<tr><td>Audio quality
</td><td>Poor. 

Loud white noise component in the lecture as well as in the TV interview.

Words audible, headphones recommended.

</td></tr>

<tr><td>Identifiable voices
</td><td>Ticknor, Harnish
</td></tr>

</table>

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== Transcription ==

=== Notes ===

Note, the Round Table was something of a community discussion forum, not an esoteric group.

=== 1985 Oct-Nov Calendar and Dates ===
TS Talk [[1985-10-Theosophical-Society-Miami]] had to be the last week in October, 1985 based on the calender and the remarks below. Knowing the day of the week would give the precise date of the TS talk.

TS Talk: Mr. Rose will be speaking at the Florida Society for Psychical Research on Sunday at 11:00 AM at 2005 Jackson Street, in Hollywood. And Saturday night we’re having a Round Table meeting

Saturday Nov 2 is [[1985-1102-What-Do-You-Know-For-Sure-Miami]]

Sunday Nov 3 Florida Society for Psychical Research -- no tape, no other mention

[[1985-1015-Public-TV-Interview-Miami]] was 2 weeks earlier.

[[File:1985-Oct-Nov-calendar.png|500px|none]]

=== Wife's story of harvesting organs ===

Here's a good reference:  http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/sweden/10745138/Swedish-stroke-patient-hears-doctors-discuss-removing-his-organs.html

=== File 0 ===

2 min Intro by Art Ticknor

=== File 1 ===

29 minutes.  

The title of the talk is "What do you know for sure?" And I maintain that a lot of things we don’t know for sure.

We can procrastinate all our lives up to the last minute with platitudes.

Worked on a farm when young. Old farmer said many paths to the barn but they go to the same place. 

The path doesn’t take you there, you take yourself there. 

You don’t learn. 

Omar Khayyam, came out the same door whence he went. 

At the age of twenty-one I realized that the finite mind could become less finite. 

Radha Soami. 

Set myself a goal, I would not pay for the truth.

If someone is selling it, he is selling under false pretenses.

At age of 34  [this is incorrect] in Seattle I had an experience.

After 30 years in a relative dimension I found myself in a different dimension for several hours, then was forced to return.

Didn’t know what the experience was. Started picking up books. Friend introduced to him to Bucke’s 

Cosmic Consciousness.  Various examples in history, St. John of the Cross.

Described by Ramana Maharshi.

[a few seconds inaudible]

I do not like to use the word God.  But in the experience I was God.

Ramana Maharshi, kevala is bucket in well, can pull it back out.

Sahaja is drop of water entering the ocean, loses its identity.

No proper English word; enlightenment has too many connotations.

Same as the word God. WV joke.

Look in the mirror at your body. Realize that nearly of your thoughts are oriented to reproduction. 

Animal nature. Bundle of conditioned reflexes.

There are 2 systems that will lead to total spiritual knowledge: Zen and psychology. 

But not the psychology of today, behaviorism aimed at educating the robots.

After my experience I studied Zen in order to have a language for explaining it. 

Our language is dualistic, dictionary, not suited for abstract knowledge.

Instead of explaining, what you do is challenge the intellect. 

Attack the computer with excessive data and it will blow a fuse.

Then go back and study the experiences of other people, find a correlation.

50% of the people here are not interested in what I’m saying.

Gave a talk at Light Center in Pennsylvania. “We all have something in common, let’s be honest, we all hate each other.” i.e., different sects with warring beliefs.

Does a man own a house or does the house own him?

Does he have power or is he overpowered?

'''[continues reading Lecture of Questions, interspersed with commentary]'''

=== File 2 ===

32 minutes.  

[continues Lecture of Questions]

Thought, nature of thought, brain chemistry.

There is a mind-dimension. 

Always remember that there are two of you. The seer and the seen; you are thinking and able to see the thoughts.

Beyond the thought process, beyond the mind dimension, is a state of unity.

Worst thing to do is try to define the absolute, but maybe you will get a feel.

Old superstition that you couldn’t deplete the thought processes.

Brain chemistry; prostaglandins. Binary creatures, logic and intuition.

Capacity of computer to take in possibility of survival.

Can’t be done with logic.

Can you start thinking? Can you stop thinking?

Why go to church, why do anything?

You have to encourage a hunger.

You have to associate with people who are collegues, are curious. You have to read, the intuition to discern.

[Minute 15 - discussion that some people aren’t interested, allow them to leave. Then microphone passed around for questions.]

==== Q&A ====

Q – Mr. Rose, where do prostaglandins come from?

RR – I’m afraid to want to tell you. People should do research if they’re interested.

If I thought that woman were interested in chemistry I would be willing to talk to her. It’s evident there is a direction here, if people are interested they will ask.

Q – another on prostaglandins.

RR – Discusses neurotransmitters.

Q – somewhat condescending remarks that people here are not capable of understanding, but says she is interested in death experiences and absolute.

RR – my experience in Seattle was death.

There is some very remarkable evidence that we do survive death.

All experiences not the same.

Common denominators in after-death experiences.

People dressed in white; met by relatives, speak to Christ or God.
Article in Readers Digest, “I died at 10:20.”

Hills once again hills, valleys once again valleys.

Q – What do you recommend for meditation.

RR – Opposed to methods that reach for bliss. Observation of trauma.

No bright light, no spiral staircase, I went into everythingness and nothingness.


=== File 3 ===

31 minutes.  

Instinctive man, no after death experience, acquaintance in Benwood who had heart attack, just blackness.

Moody & Kübler-Ross. Reported experiences, but didn’t say what type of person he was, religious, emotional, mental, etc.

Up until the final experience you walk with the paradox.

It seems paradoxical, it’s a relative mind. You can’t prove anything, and for everything, the opposite can also be proven.

The most sensible thing I can see for this life is education.

Q – If psychology is good but American psychology no good, where in psychology can we look?

RR – You can look in yourself. Karl Jung. 

Q – yes, the question is what does the thinking in an astral experience when the mind leaves the body; and we would love to hear about your near-death experience.

Story about his brother’s experience in the hospital, above his body, watching army chaplain, wife, etc.

Q – were you enlightened before your experience, or was this your enlightenment experience?
[RR – inaudible, makes some humorous remark, gets laughter,]

Q – about consciousness of people who are theoretically brain-dead.
RR – story about wife, in harvest of organs.

Q – another question about the experience.
RR – tells the story.

Q – celibacy.


RR – If you are a genuine spiritual person you will know what to do.


=== File 4 is on a different web page ===

== end ==
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