View source for 1980-0313-Are-Your-Values-Working-Pittsburgh

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[[Category:1980s]]
[[Category:Pittsburgh]]
[[Category:In Process]]
[[Category:Video]]
[[Category:Healing]]

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{{Recording Data
|record-date          = March 13, 1980
|location             = University of Pittsburgh
|number-tapes         = 3 @ 60
|source               = DM
|other-recorders      = 
|other-versions       = 
|dvd-number           = 
|number-mp3s          = six = 31 + 31 + 31 + 31 + 31 + 27
|total-time           = 182 min = 3 hr 2 min
|transcription-status = SH started Feb 2014
|distribution-link    =  
|distribution-pdf     = 
|published-book       = 
|published-website    = 
|remarks              = First 37 min - T/F questionnaire. Lecture on healing begins at File 2, min 8.
|audio-quality        = Very good. File 2 at min. 6 runs very fast for 5 minutes

|who-is-present       = 
|url-direct-mind      = 
|}}

== Notes ==

This is at Carnegie-Mellon University. Announcement Pittsburgh Post-Gazette April 8, 1980

[[File:1980-0313-are-your-values-working-announcement.jpg|500px]]

2nd pass side 5 at MJ’s 8:44 page 62 
>>> Side 3 do mp3 over?? – minute 27 noise

DM tape starts to slip at about min 5 on side 2

Check D.M.TAPE SIDE 6 AT MIN 19

Jaqua files are cut off when static starts – minute 19 6

Times are from Dave Mettle collection
Side min 25:40 “that possibly the rest of the lectures that you’ll hear me giving will be along these lines, and will be along what I call a direct-mind approach, a direct-mind science”
Jaqua’s file’s are more clear. Check them for Q&A and other inaudible spots.

Add to biography-travels the visit to NC to the Edgar Cayce organization – met Hugh Lynn Cayce.

== File 1 ==
Total time 30:57

00:00

The talk is about values, and I want to begin with a little test, if you don’t mind. Because it’s a test I’m not going to tell you the whole scope of what we’re after here with this, because if I tell you, it will color the test. So I want somebody to – take some of these with you, someone who doesn’t have a pencil [etc]

Now on this piece of paper – this will be – to keep it anonymous – don’t put your name on it, don’t put any signature or anything on it to identify yourself. This is just a percentage. We’re going to take a percentage poll you might say, for a specific reason. And this is in let’s say the opinion of values, certain values. So by keeping the thing with no identification or numbers on it, names on it, you can be totally honest and at the same time no one can gripe at you if they don’t agree with you.

01:27

Each one of these statements will have a number. And what we’ll do – I’ll call the number and then you’ll just write true or false on the paper, which is T or F. So it’s very simple, all you have to – I know you’re going to have difficulty writing there some places. But the numbers are ... there are 23 numbers in the first section, so if you can get those on one side of the paper – while you’re waiting – that will help. We’ll go through this, and then after, it might take a half hour to run through this, I don’t know. And then we’ll – I’d like to give a short talk on another set of values, without any questions.

02:18

Okay, now this series is called the “What is wrong with me?” series. And you can, again, mark on number 1 your true or false reply, and we’ll go right down the thing.

What is wrong with me?

1. Nothing. Now if you feel that nothing is wrong with you, put True, T.

2. I would like to be loved.

3. I cannot get ahead. 

4. I cannot have any fun.

5. I have no friends.

6. I have no peace of mind.

03:22

These are true or false, now, don’t forget.

7. I have no faith or spiritual direction.

8. I am enslaved by people.

9. I am enslaved by circumstances.

10. I am sick.

11. I am incurably sick. (That’s a real pessimist.)

12. I am suffering from poor education. (This is the right place for that.)

13. I do not have contacts that will help me socially. In other words. my troubles are bad social contacts.

14. I do not have opportunity contacts.

15. I’m lonesome.

16. I am sexually troubled. (This is the reason we had no names on it.)

17. I have a neurosis.

18. I am the cause of my own unhappiness.

19. My parents caused my unhappiness.

20. Our social climate has made me sick.

21. Religion makes misfits and threatens my individuality.

22. I cannot escape poverty.

23. I am lacking in power. I don’t have any power.

05:15

Okay.

Q. There were 23? R. i made a mistake, 23. The 3 looks like a 9 here, but there’s really 23, that’s all there is. Q. inaudible. R. Right, [laughs] that was one.

05:31

Okay, now we’ll get back to these. now just turn your page over, or if you’ve got room alongside of it, I have another little category here. Q. How many. R. There’s about 12. This category is for a different reason. I’ll explain these after we’re all through. i started these in the 50s so you won’t get confused when I call out a number. So this is fifty-one:

51. I think that man’s mental and social problems will be solved best by old-fashioned religion.

52. All religion of an organized, conventional type has failed man completely, and man must look to unconventional neo-religions or cults for mental rescue. [added below: Something else besides religion, specifically replacement religions or cults.]

06:30
[move this before #51]
If you want me to repeat those – now they may be a little complex, but the questions as a whole is what you have to agree or disagree with.

53. Psychiatry today is the answer to our mental difficulties and social adjustments.

54. [repeated below] I believe that man is only a physical being, or body, hence, chemical or and biological remedies are all that is needed to produce mental changes cures – since mental changes defects are caused by chemical imbalance.

07:29

[repeats 54]

In other words, it’s saying in effect that there’s no such thing as an essencial mind failure, that’s it’s basically a brain or chemical failure, or biological.

55. Man is not immortal and has no surviving essence.

56. Things which the body does have no effect upon the mind.

57. Sexual experiences do not affect the mind.

58. Drugs do not affect or harm the mind.

59. There is absolutely no way to ascertain the existence of life after death.

60. There is no way to find the soul.

61. The physical man with his reflexive ability has stumbled across scientific wisdom, with which the collective brains of mankind will sooner or later master the accidental mass called the universe.

Q. Could you repeat that?

R. [laughs] Yeah. It means that the Skinnerian man, reflexive man, an entity composed of reflexes rather than volition, will accidentally someday, with his accidental wisdom, learn to control the universe.

62. The brain cannot find the mind or the soul.

10:07

That’s coming in from the same angle, that the brain is – we are just a brain with a reflexive nature, reflexive ability, and this type of brain cannot find the soul. This is of course a statement that could be true or false.

Now these are given for another purpose, and we’ll get into those. Now I’m going to go back to the other [first] questions that we had here.

[Somebody asks him to repeat 51 and 52, and he does.]

11:28

Q. What if we don’t have an opinion on them?

R. Why not just put a question mark? That’s good enough. Or it could be both or either or neither. Okay, now what we have to do is pick up the papers – everybody pass them in.

[gap in tape]

12:27

R. One. It was a statement, so yea, you know, I would like for you to, we picked, let’s see, let’s take 18, 19, 20 and 21. Q. inaudible. R. No. We’ll not touch the 50s at all.

13:11


Now, the first one was, “What is wrong with me?” 

1. Nothing is wrong with me.

And the “true” statement of that of course would be – now of course what I’m doing is only throwing some suggestions here, or some questions. I’m in turn questioning whatever is answered. And if a person says that nothing is wrong, if they put “true” to that, then I have a question, or a statement let’s say. I would say that no help is necessary. If there’s nothing wrong with a person, they’re perfect. And of course if someone checks that off, they’re one of the few perfect people that you’ll meet in a lifetime.

2. I would like to be loved.

And my question for that is: Why? Why do you think you’re worth it?

3. I cannot get ahead. 

And my question for that is: How many people are worse off than yourself? And aren’t you ahead of those people, who are worse?

4. I cannot have any fun.

My statement to that is: Describe fun.

5. I have no friends.

My question to anyone who makes that remark is: Are you loyal and consistent in your relationships with people?

6. I have no peace of mind.

15:08

How many gods or heroes do you follow? How many causes do you try to keep up with?

7. I have no faith or spiritual direction.

And my question is: Are you without fear? In other words, is there anybody without a spiritual direction?

8. I am enslaved by people.

My question is: Describe someone you know who has complete independence, complete freedom from enslavement.

9. I am enslaved by circumstances.

And my question is: Isn’t this fatalism? Can you change the odds? Or can’t the odds be changed?

10. I am sick.

The question is: Why? And I’m serious; it isn’t just an easy question. If you’re sick, do you lament about it? Because we hear a lot of people doing that; that’s the topic of conversation when they meet the people next door, or someone in the beer joint. They’ll say, “Boy, I feel rough and I’m sick and I can’t get better,” and that sort of thing. But do they go after it and analyze what made them sick, and can they avoid it in the future?

11. I am incurably sick. 

And my question is: What’s your next step?

12. I am suffering from poor education.

The question is: Can you read? Or listen?
 
13. I do not have contacts that will help me socially. 

I just have a statement: Examine your personality.

14. i do not have opportunity contacts.

Do you stay at home 24 hours of the day?

15. I’m lonesome.

Do you hate people? Or are you afraid of them?

16. I am sexually troubled. 

How much can sex accomplish?

17. I have a neurosis.

What’s that? Are you the sole owner, of neuroses?

17:51

18. I am the cause of my own unhappiness.

How many times have you heard that? That’s a noble, masochistic declaration. And the question for that is: Are you God, that you cause everything?

19. My parents caused my unhappiness.

I’ve heard this hundreds of times. [and the question is:] Why do you stop there? Can’t you pass the buck back to Grandpa? Great Grandpa? And then of course if you can, which one to you criticize the most? Which one do you blame?

20. Our social climate has made me sick.

The question is: Why do you associate with a sick society?

21. Religion makes misfits and threatens my individuality.

The statement there is: Perhaps some misfits make some religions. I don’t quibble with the fact that lots of things can make misfits. But some misfits can also make religions.

22. I cannot escape poverty.

Does wealth bring happiness?

23. I am lacking in power. 

Can you begin by conquering smaller mountains?

19:29

Now – this – I would like to have someone – where’s the boy? Where’s Frank? Oh, he’s still figuring. 

[long pause] [noises]

20:30

Now what we did before, was we passed those papers around again, but we can cut this short by just putting up hands. But what you have to do, whatever you do, put your hand up for either true or false. Because it will mess up the count if we don’t, because we presume everybody here has filled out a little paper.

20:56

[Makes arrangements with someone to tally the answers.]

Now, I’d like to get someone who could – you want to do it? Maybe you could write on here. ?? Write the numbers down, 1 to 23. Now if I could get somebody up here to help me count them. It will take a little while. Do you want to come up? I’ll take this side and you take this [other] side. 

I’m going to run through some of these questions now. And I’m going to presume that you’re going to forget about your first response. So let’s try it all over again, let’s say with a little thought – but don’t take too long to debate. I’ll ask the question and we’ll only call for true’s – you’ll raise your hand if your answer is “true”. The false, naturally, are the uncounted ones.

22:32

First of all let’s see if we can get a count of the people here. So we’ve got a total of 54, so we’ll subtract the true from that to get the false. So we’ll go again: [Frank counts one side of the room, Mr. Rose counts the other.]

What is wrong with me? 

1. Nothing. How many find that true? 54 false.

2. I would like to be loved. 31 true, 23 false.

3. I cannot get ahead. Got 3 honest people. 

4. I cannot have any fun. 1 true, 53 false.

5. I have no friends. [none true]

6. I have no peace of mind. 9 altogether.

7. I have no faith or spiritual direction. 3 altogether.

8. I am enslaved by people. 8 altogether.

9. I am enslaved by circumstances. Wow, 23.

10. I am sick. 7 altogether.

11. I am incurably sick.  [nobody] Those 7 are optimists.

12. I am suffering from poor education; that’s the reason I can’t get ahead. 4 altogether.

26:43. 

13. I do not have contacts that will help me socially.  4 altogether.  ??

14. I do not have opportunity contacts. I just don’t get the breaks. 2 altogether.

15. I’m lonesome. 7 altogether.

16. I am sexually troubled. I’m going to skip this one.

17. I have a neurosis. 14 total.

18. I am the cause of my own unhappiness. 29 total.

19. My parents caused my unhappiness. Well, we jumped on that one pretty hard. Nobody wants to – give him hell. 1 true.

20. Our social climate makes me sick. 25 true.

21. Religion makes misfits and threatens my individuality. 8 true.

22. I cannot escape poverty. 2 altogether.

23. I am lacking in power.  12 altogether.

29:28

Now, what we have here is a sheet, and we’re only going to take up a short bit of your time now. We’re going to take 18 – we’re just going to take 4 of them as a sample copy – we could run through them and you’d see some results. On number 18 give me the number of true. I have 36. Now of course, I’ll tell you what we have here, is false, I’ve only got 10. But you would have 18. [54 minus 36] Which means that our percentages are thrown off immediately, because we have a total of 54. So either we didn’t 

Q. [Frank] Some of them didn’t answer.

R. Oh, undecided. Okay, good enough. 

Q. [Lou] ??

R. Yes, that’s true. Well, what we’re going to – I’ll bring the point out later, so it doesn’t matter. Number 19, ah ...

[break in tape]

[file 1 ends at 30:57

== File 2 ==
Total time: 31:02

INSERT:

Here Rose takes as a sample, questions 18, 19, 20 and 21 and compares the count of “true” from the initial papers that were turned in, to ther second pass when the hands were raised.


00:00

Now putting your hand up is more or less an acknowledgment. On a piece of paper you don’t acknowledge, but to save time we had our hands up. And if there were anything let’s say negative that would reflect on you, there’s more of an inclination not to put your hand up than there would be not to write on the paper. But here are the results.

18. I am the cause of my own unhappiness

First count: 36  true.  Show of hands: 30 true

19. My parents caused my unhappiness. 

First count: 9  true.  Show of hands: 1 true
 
20. Our social climate makes me sick. 

First count: 28 true.  Show of hands: 19 true..

21. Religion makes misfits and threatens my individuality

First count: 15 true.  Show of hands: 8 true..

02:12

Now the reason we did this – I did this at a lecture I gave at Ohio State University,  and it has to do with values, and how rapidly values can change. For instance, all that happened between the first time you gave an answer to these statements, and the second time, when you held up your hands, was a little bit of a comment, or a remark, or a question. And I find it hard to believe that such a comment would have carried that much influence, to cause a change, but yet I can’t see anything else that would cause it.

02:59

Of course, the comments were studied by me very carefully before I compiled this list of statements. but what I’m getting at is that you get a percentage here. For instance on number 18 we go from 36 down to 30, which is a 16% change within 20 or 30 minutes at the very most, in opinion. And 19 we went from 9 to 1, which is practically 90% change in a few minutes. And number 20 there was a small change, 28 to 25, which is about [ten percent]. one seventh, I don’t know what that percentage would be. But we go now from 21, and the change in the true’s were 15 to 8, which is almost a 50% change in opinion.

04:03

[[tape starts to slip a little here – runs fast]

So the point that I’m trying to make is that most people don’t have, today, strict sets of values, that if a thing seems – first of all, perhaps they don’t think too deeply about controversial matters or even things that are wrong with themselves. They’re just more or less inclined to say, “Well, what’s the average fellow think about it? – and that’s what I’ll go along with.” Or, “What’s the popular thing to say? – and I’ll try to say the popular thing.” 

04:41

But I maintain that this has another – there’s another thing behind this, of course, and one of the reasons I was curious was, because we’re starting a psychological system. I used to lecture a lot on esoteric philosophy, and I came to the conclusion that it’s in the stratosphere as far as most people are concerned. And in the future I’m going to direct most of my lectures to psychological values rather than to esoteric values.

05:08

And I – we were in the process of evaluating or feeling exactly what change could be effected in a person, say in a one-day intensive. And if there’s anything, if this reading gives us anything, in a, perhaps even in a classroom [like this] – in other words, you’re not obliged to – you owe me nothing, I’m not a teacher giving you credits – you could write what you please and say what you please and there’s no loss. What would happen of course if there were some of these other circumstances where a person would feel obliged to bend their mind to the teacher’s mind in order to get a grade and get through the whole rugged mess and get the degree and go on and make some money.

05:52

How does this carry over with the layman in the street who has psychological needs? – and he prefers to define them in the terms of let’s say what he thinks people think. And unfortunately this is where we get caught, because our whole structure of the meaning behind the word normality is what we think people think is normal, and what we imagine – we all try to imagine what would people want us to say: “What would Mr. and Mrs. Jones say in a given situation? – and I must try to mimic that with my life, and be appropriate.” 

06:30

But anyhow I thought this was very favorable, that given the proper type of intensive, based upon a desire of all parties, including the parties giving the intensive and the parties receiving it, that they didn’t want to be brainwashed – that they would be a very good, say we could predict ahead of time and explain ahead of time what you were aiming for, what type of mental clarity you were aiming for, then possibly this thing of becoming., or changing might be phenomenal, in just a single day

07:03

I’ll get back to these other 50 – the ones that have been labeled 50 later. And I have a reason for that as well. Now again I want to remind you of the – the reason I didn’t tell you what I was going to do, because I felt that if I said we were going to run through these numbers twice, you might have memorized the answers. This way, in that short period of time, possibly you forgot what your first answers were, as well, see. When you run through 23. So we deliberately through at least a full 23 in there so that the mind couldn’t remember. If there had been only 3 or 4 you would have remembered your answers.

07:38

[pause – just shuffling papers]

== Lecture ==
07:58

I’m going to talk a little tonight about the subject that we’re experimenting with or thinking about, working with in the future. and that is this business of mental adjustment and healing. I became interested in healing by accident. I never intended to be a healer, and I still don’t intend to be a healer. But I have discovered some strange things, in the process of some demonstrations in hypnosis; these were concurrent with some demonstrations of hypnosis. And of course the reason I was giving the demonstrations in hypnosis was to show the extreme plasticity of the human mind. That we don’t have much – we like to think that we’re all self-motivated and self-dominated and that sort of thing. And [but] we’re very plastic creatures.

09:03

And sometimes the most intelligent – contrary to popular belief about hypnosis – the most intelligent are the easiest to hypnotize. Which doesn’t sound good for the hope of humanity. But – I noticed that there was a – oh, years ago I noticed this but I never quite put a label on it. When I first got interested in hypnosis I noticed that there were two schools. One was the fluidic or Mesmeric  school, and the other was the mechanical: you don’t use any passes or anything like that, you just dangle an object in front of the person or you repeat things to them, maybe have a rotating light or some soft music. And this is all mechanical means that brings about hypnosis.

09:49

But what impressed me most was this non-mechanical method of hypnosis. And I found out that given certain situations, I could walk up and point my finger at a person and they’d immediately go to sleep. And simultaneously with this – now you may think I’m kidding that I have done this – and simultaneously with this I had the conviction that I was inside their head. And as a result of this conviction I would occasionally ask them, “Are you thinking this, or are you thinking that?” – and they’d say, “Yes.” The rate of accuracy was ...

[break in tape – end of fast speed, start of normal speed]

10:38

... seems like it’s total. There’s no chance for error. And I very seldom – I’ve been disappointed or mistaken, or somebody’s misinformed me – that could be either – but I’ll admit that very possibly I just made a wrong guess. But it isn’t a guess. It’s being one with somebody’s head. And this was part of this other system, what I call the fluidic method or the Mesmeric system of hypnosis.

11:08

Then, the next thing that happened, I was standing like, I was up here at Weirton one time, and I had the audience – it was a community college in Weirton, West Virginia, and it was kind of a – the seats were banked, like, and I had a good view of everyone. And it just occurred to me that there were some people in there who had headaches. And I told them they had headaches, I pointed to them, and – of course, this isn’t all psychic. This can be – sometimes a person gets  a little tense around the face when they have a headache, so you can blame it on – the critic immediately would say, “Well, you picked up something.” Or, [as] the hypnotist, you gave them the headache. So which – you know, it could be, by suggestion. 

11:55

But they didn’t all say they did have [?] So that, I know, in one particular case we were just sitting in a room and I could see the headache. And hypnosis wasn’t going on, it was just a group of people sitting there. In fact, Frank was there at the time. And I just felt there was a disturbance; we weren’t having the proper rapport. And I looked over at this fellow and said, “You have a headache, don’t you?” And I just pointed, I said, “It looks like a wedge down the middle of your forehead.” And he said, “That’s exactly it.” And I said, “Let’s go out in the kitchen and get some coffee; there’s no use in us sitting here.” 

12:37

But anyhow, the reason I’m telling you this is not to make an impression, but to get something across to you that I discovered, or think I discovered at least. And that is that there’s a direct-mind method of approaching your fellowman. And it’s not mysterious. I think that we are only now approaching something, and the very fringes of something, that nearly all the animals have. So it’s no great mystery when you see the – I use the, make the comparison of the lion and the deer going down to the water hole together. There are certain times when the lion and the deer will drink water side by side, because the deer knows that the lion is not hungry. There are some manifestations, some mental rapport or communication, or ESP or whatever it is.

13:38

To us, watching it from the sidelines there doesn’t seem to be much conversation going on. But they risk their life on this understanding. Of course, the understanding is that the lion isn’t hungry; so in some way the deer can tell that; not only the deer but practically any animal that is the victim of predators. 

13:59

So I came to the conclusion that not only is there a fluidic force – and this is a – when I say – talk about a fluidic force I’m talking about something [that] is an extrusion of the mind, that touches another mind. Touches it so completely that it knows what it’s thinking. Or – touches it so completely that it heals it. And this means not only touching it but transferring something.

14:27

And I came to the conclusion that not all people may have that. But I don’t think it’s that hard to come by. I think it’s just too expensive – by expensive I mean putting in time, patience, to develop something which let’s say almost anyone can develop, if they take the time.

But I started looking back. I thought, “What is this with me?” Am I – you know – I don’t hear too many other hypnotists doing things this way; perhaps they do it and don’t know it. I would remember cases whenever I hear anything relative to this it would make a strong impact upon me, because I felt that this wasn’t new. Where do we find it in the literature? It had  to be somewhere. 

15:15

And you find it in the places you least expect. For instance I remember when I was a very small child we had a lady doctor who could tell the diseases by walking into the room and smelling. Now that doesn’t sound too logical, but of course we presume that every disease has a particular odor. But she could accurately – just as soon as she would walk into the room, she would kind of sniff a bit and she would say, “Oh, it’s this.” And invariably she’d be right. Of course, she didn’t gamble too much on it, she’d check it out. But she was invariably right. 

15:53

So I came to the conclusion that people in different walks of life do have it, and Lord knows how many. How many of them know it when they let’s say go into business dealings, or when they’re selling some product that someone else doesn’t want to buy. And it it possible that momentarily they lock their minds into this other person and become so self-hypnotized that they convince the other party that they’re on the up and up. 

16:22

But going back in history, in some of the old books I found out that they’re – all through history, that is, going back to the time of Socrates and Plato, we had lesser technology but more surviving instances of tremendous mind power. At least accounts [of them]; we can’t prove them all. But some of them are in the Bible. Now we can – of course this is the age of scorning religion and I don’t intend to make religion the issue. The issue is, is it a history book? Is there anything true at all in it? If it’s true as a history, then we’ve got to take a second look and say, “Did this fellow walk on water? Did these people ascend up in  the air a flaming vehicle? Or, “Did they heal, and how did they heal?” 

17:28

And I watched the different healers who I’ve seen recently and compared them with Christ as a healer. We had one down in Texas, I guess he’s still there, his name is Norbu Chen. ,   And that’s not his right [real] name,  but he, I think he grew up in Kentucky, I’m not sure. But he went over to Tibet, largely to get away from some people who were after him; he had pulled a few tricks on some gangsters and he thought that he’d better get out of the country for awhile. But while he was over there I think he met the author one of these books on Tibet, and they put him in contact with some lamas who could teach him how to heal. they locked him in a cave until he learned; this is one of the ways that they taught him. [according to his own account] They put his whole attention upon it, by sealing up the cave: and he got to come out when he knew how to heal.

18:31

But that was the thing. He had a system of healing which he explained, and it was what I call “zapping”. And what – you’re acquainted with possibly some of the manifestations of powers that come from some of the adepts who come out of India. The word had gone around that there was a young guru, they called him a 12 or 14 year old guru who came over, ,   and he manifestly didn’t have too much power of his own, but he was accompanied by a couple of men they called mahatmas.  And the mahatmas had the ability to zap you, and people got zapped, largely when the mahatmas were present.

Now what do we mean by “zap”? They would be thrown into a situation where they would fall on the floor weeping. That is let’s say the milder form of being zapped. With Norbu Chen, his procedure was to shout and point or thrust with his hand, and the party would be healed. And I read some accounts of some of the healings that took place and they were striking; they were tumors, inoperable tumors, and that sort of thing.

19:47

Now the next thing I noticed, or remembered, was there was a story went out about Christ – I don’t know where it started from, but Christ was supposed to have been a zapper. Now the zapper uses his own quantum energy. When I speak of quantum energy I mean that there is so much [a certain amount of] energy in the human body that you can use however you wish. You can work 24 hours a day maybe for the first day, or you can go out and get drunk and stay drunk for two days. Or you can channel it into another direction and it will become spiritual power. I use the word “spiritual” because it seems to be above just mental power, mental power being the ability to solve an algebraic equation.

20:35 [note “came to this conclusion” several times]

The ability of a certain person to ball this energy up and hurl it in a direction is what I call zapping. And it depends on whatever the projector or the healer wants to happen, whether he’s healing or whether he just wants to impress them for monetary purposes. But I came to the conclusion that all the instances I read about in the Bible were instances of this type of transfer of quantum energy. And the reason I came to this conclusion was a little passage which tells about a woman who was following Christ and she was sick. And she didn’t have the courage enough to go up and say. “How about healing me,” so she crept up behind him and touched the edge of his garment. And she was immediately healed. 

21:20

And what happened was, that he was a dynamo of quantum energy, because of the spiritual way he lived, and as soon as she touched it, she got the energy. This was – why I use the word “quantum”, because Christ complained and said, “What happened?” He felt the loss, he felt drained. And somebody pointed her out and said, “She touched you.” 

Well this meant a tremendous lot to me. I don’t know how many people read that and glossed over it. But I believe this is one method of healing. And I’ve talked to some of the old-time religion people – strangely enough my father-in-law was a Pentecostal  minister, which isn’t my religion, incidentally, so I learned a lot of new things when he was around. And he was a healer. And he could build up a tremendous amount of energy, but it seemed to have the ability – it was like the stories in Tobacco Road or God’s Little Acre no, it was Tobacco Road, the romantic preacher. He was a romantic preacher. After he healed so many people he had more energy than he knew what to do with, so he always diffused it on some good-looking girl in the congregation – and he lost his power and then had to go back and fast and start all over again.

22:46

But I started to get an idea then – this is a thing that the average person doesn’t take into consideration, that you can do tremendous things with this, what I call spiritual energy, or spiritual quantum. If you’re interested in it, I’ll go into the procedure by which this is generated. But my main purpose in talking about it was to bring you to something else – that I was pretty much convinced that this thing that happened to me, when I would be pointing at someone, or when I would be looking inside their head, had nothing to do with zapping. 

23:29

And I’m too tired to give any energy. If I were 35 years of age and someone got zapped, I’d think, “Well, I transferred some energy.” But today [age 63] I always feel like I’m falling on my face, so if anything, I’d like to steal some. But I don’t think I could afford to give any. Nevertheless, these things happened, and I doubted that it came from me, my physical energy. And there was a sort of a law behind it that the more it happened, the more it was able to happen. And there was absolutely no weariness, no loss of energy on my part, no loss of energy on their part.

24:07

The limits of it – I mean, the potential was practically limitless. And I didn’t have this let’s say catalogued or categorized very well, but I sensed that perhaps some people were doing things this way. And that was the reason they kept going and didn’t collapse. See the prediction was that, the statement was about Christ was that – Norbu Chen said this himself: he said he’s good for two years, from the zapping technique. In other words, it’s just like a coil or something, and too much voltage goes through and it will eventually burn itself out. And Norbu Chen admitted he would be good for two years and that was it. I haven’t heard anything of Norbu Chen’s fame recently, and if anybody else has, let me know. I don’t know what he’s doing

25:01

Christ was supposedly able to last his lifetime out because he didn’t live too long. So that the time – we don’t know the time he developed this, to the time that he was killed. But the theory is, that if this is the type of energy he was using, his whole program would have been slipping, unless he had developed some other healers. 

25:25

Now, then this, I came to this other thing, which I call direct-mind healing, or direct let’s say influencing the person without energy, without the loss of energy. And I was a little bit slow to say it was anything but an accident – or let’s say a coincidence or a suggestion, that helped the thing along. But – I don’t know how many of you are acquainted with Olga Worrall, wife of Ambrose Worrall, ,   Olga from down in Baltimore. Ambrose is dead. Ambrose was a healer, and he was well up in years when he died. [age 73] And when he died his wife took over, that was Olga, and she seemed to heal people equally as well as her husband.

26:23

And we were putting on one of these TAT Chautauquas down on the farm and I decided to try to get Olga Worrall up for a talk on healing. I couldn’t, because we didn’t have that type of a budget, and she had to have more than we could afford, so we had to cancel it out. But she came to Wheeling anyhow, later. And I was up to Steubenville, Ohio, run into an old-timer there,  a fellow who had no particular background – I would doubt if he went through the eighth grade – but he knew everyone in the country in relation to healing. Because for some reason he got into holistic health, and he travels up here to Pittsburgh all the time and meets with a holistic outfit out here at Monroeville. 

27:02

But he was pretty much of an authority, and he had a little business going, and he used his telephone to call these people and talk to them, all over he United States, and he could charge it to his business. And he didn’t have anything better to do with most of the money that he wrote off. 

27:27

But I was sitting there in his house, and what brought us about with the healing, I went up to see if we could line up some speakers for our Chautauqua. I don’t know if you know Dave Gold, but Dave Gold and I were together at the time. And I stood there and was kind of looking at a button on his shirt – just out of curiosity, because maybe I didn’t want to look at his face. It was a little old shanty, practically; it was just like a part of the small factory that he ran there, like a lobby.

28:02

So he looked at me and he said, “You’re healing me, aren’t you?” And I said, “Lord, no, I’m not healing you. What makes you think that?” He says, “I’ve got bronchial trouble, bronchial asthma, and I felt something touching me; it was like a warmth diffusing.” And I said, “Well, if you’re getting healed, it’s good for you. But it’s not me doing it; I know nothing about it.” But I said, “But I’m interested in what you’re saying.”

Well he swore – he brought several people from this holistic group down to my house, and he insisted on telling them that I was a healer. And I said, “No, it’s strictly, if it happens, I don’t know anything about it.” And I didn’t. I mean, if I had gone in there with the idea of looking inside of his chest or something, and something had happened, I would have said, “Yes, it was true that I projected something there.”

28:56

But we got to talking and I said – we got to talking about healers, and there was a book lying there by Gina Cerminara,  it was a book on Edgar Cayce.  And i said to him, “I wonder if Gina Cerminara is still living.” And he says, “Oh, yes, I saw her last month.” And I said, “Did you ever hear of Olga Worrall?” And he said, “Oh, yes, I know Olga Worrall, I was talking to her on the phone the other day.” And I said, “Did you know Ambrose?” And he said, “Yes.” And I said, “I have a feeling that these people didn’t zap.” And he said, “Absolutely.” Without any hesitation – I never had another human being pick this up that quickly and know so well. 

In other words, he had explored this whole thing of healing. And I said, “I have a feeling that they healed but they didn’t lose energy. That they don’t zap. That there’s a particular little way that they hold their heads to do it.” And he said, “You’re absolutely right.” He says, “They don’t lose any energy. In fact, you can call them. I have called them when I’ve had a bad asthma attack, on the phone, and I’d get relief.” Well, whatever that was – whether that was true or false, or his imagination.

30:12

I was up in central Ohio – I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of Komar  [the Magnificent]. Komar walks on fire. Did you ever hear of him? He was on TV there a couple times. But he’s practically the only fire walker in the United States. And so I went up and talked to him, and of course he’s very happy about his ability to walk on fire, so I had to listen to a lot of self-flattery before I could get some questions in. And I said to him, “Do you know how you do it?” And he said, “No. I don’t know how I do it.” He had photographs there, he plugged it into his TV some way and was showing us these different places where he walked. And the coals would be red hot. They would rake them and they’d be livid. 

[break in tape]

File 2 ends at 31:02
== File 3 ==
Total time: 30:59

... get up and walk right across that. And I said, “How’d you ever get started at that?” And he said, “I was drunk one day.” And he said, “Somebody dared me to walk on it, so I walked.” He said, “Strangely, nothing happened.” But he said, “The next time that I tried it, it wasn’t quite the same.” He said, “I nearly burnt myself. And then,” he says, “I realized that – it just came to me – there was a certain way that I – I reached a certain state of conviction, and I walked, and nothing happened.”

00:32

So listening to him I came to the conclusion that he too was using this same thing, that he was using some sort of direct knowledge of the quality of the fire. He had a direct conviction, he had a direct understanding of what he could do and what he was immune to.

And I came to the conclusion that this is – now – as I said, I don’t expect that everybody can develop this very quickly but – I looked back historically then for other traits, other faculties of the human mind is capable of.

01:14

And I find in the ancient writings a tremendous lot of references to a very great power. There’s a notation in Blavatsky on “Vril”. ,   Whether this is legend or hope I don’t know. Vril was supposed to be a mental power that the ancients used to cut their stones. Maybe, again, since it’s history, they had no other explanation for how the pyramids were made, or [how] some of these immense architectures were created – and perfectly. I don’t know how many of you have ever been to Egypt, but I’ve seen those stones myself, they were sitting there for three or four thousand years,  and the joints have less than an eighth-inch of mortar. They’re perfectly true and you can’t get a knife blade between them. You couldn’t put your pen knife between any of these blocks that form the pyramids.

02:21

Yet they were able to bring it about. I don’t think with our present technology we could duplicate it. We’d have to build some enormous lathes to make those rocks square and true and saw them out. 

02:34

But there’s another story: it’s Kapila’s Eye.  That certain people had the ability to look at things – and you read this all through the stories of yogis in Asia: the yogi who’s able to look at the tiger or shout at the tiger, and the tiger drops dead, or becomes helpless. And the top story of them all was this Kapila’s Eye – there’s a vein of it, a little story, which runs in [through] almost all the older books on esoteric philosophy – that this person could destroy or immobilize large groups of men at once. In American history – And they claimed he would kill the horses; he could kill men and horses with his mind.

03:23

We run into these same stories in America Indian history. I don’t know if you – this is more close at hand. Tecumseh  was bullet-proof. He would actually stand up on the bank and let them shoot at him, and they couldn’t hit him until his day came. And when his day came he told them that it would come. There was another – Crazy Horse  – Crazy Horse likewise was immune to bullets. And Tecumseh was a very strange man; he was almost like a magus – he had a tremendous lot of power. I can’t remember – he made predictions and – one time he said, “I’ll stamp my feet and the earth will tremble,” and he stamped his feet and there was an earthquake.  Now why – [And] I  don’t think the white man would go overboard in trying to build this fellow up.

04:13

But all through – if you look for them – and then you get into personal – if you’re looking for that, it’s there too, today. But in a very much smaller degree. And I blame it on the fact that we have more to distract us. Back in history people didn’t have the toys; they didn’t have automobiles and electricity and electronics and all these things to distract them. And the person today who wants to develop any of that stuff has to alienate himself from the toys, and the electronics and everything else.

04:49

So – I think that the remedy, consequently, is to go back inside ourselves to look at it.

05:00

Now – this was sought after. This thing was sought after down through the – let’s say the middle ages or dark ages, and it was called alchemy.  (There’s a bit of talk that alchemy was based upon the discovery of gold. I – a little bit – because of the symbology of nearly all of the alchemical writings.) And the writings of Paracelsus.  What they were looking for was this big answer. They were looking for that which would control, and that which would make man a superman, not so much changing lead into gold.

05:44

And if you read Paracelsus’ writings  you’ll find that they developed some very strange things, and how the, where they got the formula I don’t know. One of these is the story of the homunculi. ,  ,   These were little people that they created, and keep them in jars. I guess they were about ten inches high or something of that sort. And when you hear the formula for how they were created – it doesn’t sound impossible; of course you wondered why. But the reason why of course was that they would, they had them dressed. How they found out which role they should play I don’t know. But one of them was a warrior and one was a king, one was a queen, and one was a monk. And on matters theological you’d get the monk out of the jar and ask him questions, and he would give you wisdom, supposedly.

06:41

And of course they tell of the – Paracelsus names the Duke – this was a very rich man carrying on these experiments – and he tells of the – they lost the king one day, I think it was the king and he got out of his bottle and chased the queen, and they couldn’t get him back in the bottle before he died. They had a liquid that kept him alive. So there was quite a history of it. And then there were – they had to – because of politics or wars or battles going on around them, they had to get rid of the whole nest of them.

Now this can be found, you can find this in any library, Franz Hartmann. ,   Incidentally, we used to have the book distributed. We couldn’t get them. The Steiner people published it, and they quit publishing it and I don’t know why. But you could still get it, read it in a public library.

07:37

But let’s take this and apply it to psychology now. What would be the difference, or what would be the advantage, of a person with a little better faculty in the business of diagnosing things? You take a fellow like Edgar Cayce, who diagnosed through the mail with a tremendous degree of accuracy, and I maintain that this is what the man had, although he never defined it. I maintain he had a direct-mind method of arriving at what he wanted to know. And he would even tell people in a letter to go to a certain drug store that they’d already been to, and the druggist said that they didn’t have the article that he put on his prescriptions, so to speak, to go and look again, on the exact shelf. He told the shelf and the place it would be

08:33

This is more than an actual faculty. And I’m weighing this against the laborious thing, the trial and error of the way we do it today: of give the guy a pill, and if that doesn’t work, why, wire him up and give him shock treatments. And if that doesn’t work pack him in ice and tie him up so he can’t resist, and if that doesn’t work go back to the pills and make the circle again.

09:07

I think that the, possibly the doctors of a thousand years ago were more able of having this direct-mind perception than today.   Now we’re not so – of course I read in the Newsweek that the DNA molecule is being developed and miracles are going to happen by let’s say our tinkering with the chromosomes, and it looks like we’re doing something marvelous every day. But we just had a million dollar lawsuit right in my hometown, a very small place, where they pumped the prescribed drugs into a baby and the baby’s brain is permanently ruined, and the court awarded a million dollars, a cold million, to the parents and the child. And this is your infallible science, as opposed to maybe a direct type of diagnosis.

10:07

The skills of modern surgery are not new. The only thing that’s new is the chemistry. Nearly everything they do with surgery today they did before. They found skulls from ancient Rome where they had cut the hole in the head, they called it trepanning,  either to – of course we say they did it to let out the evil spirits. But it’s very possible too that they had a concussion, and it was to relieve off pressure. I notice that the skulls in some of the mummies of ancient Egypt – of course they may have taken their brains out that way too – but they all had a hole, some of them, at least the ones I saw, had holes in the top of their head. They repaired people, they had, they cut limbs off that were infected, and performed operations on the abdomen as well as the limbs. And seemingly without the knowledge of antiseptic or sterility, you know, keeping things sterile.

11:07

So the result of much of this – this that I have dug through, resulted in the books I’ve written. And The Albigen Papers was written as a sort of a substitute system and a complaint about the inadequacies of what we consider conventional healing and conventional science. Then I wrote another little book, The Psychology of the Observer, in which I attempt to show the way the mind can really find itself, which I don’t think has ever been [given out] – and I know of no – and I’ve covered a lot of psychology books, incidentally – I know of no psychology book which will give you this insight into the human mind.

11:54

But the reason is, I use the direct-mind technique to do it. And you can examine it for yourself and see what you think. But this is a science. It’s not a superstition. And what is a science? A science is something that carries prediction and proof. That is, like the science of chemistry is based upon first of all predicting that certain elements in combination will form a certain solid or substance, then following this up by putting the elements or the materials together, and if that predicted substance appears, then you have a scientific procedure.

12:43

Now the same thing occurs with Edgar Cayce. Edgar Cayce was scientific in the fact that he predicted that he would heal. And although the means seemed very unconventional, people were healed. And thousands of letters or – well, there was evidence anyhow, that the people were, they had to be [have been] pretty well treated or they could have put him out of business in a hurry.

13:10

This again is a sort of super – to describe it – it’s a sort of super-ESP. We talk of ESP – the average person doesn’t even try to develop ESP. But there’s something beyond ESP. And again, I maintain that nearly all animals have something more than just simple ESP. 

This is also the – this of – is able to observe the difficulty that goes on in the adjustments in the brain. [sentence] It observes the adjustments in the brain, and reasons or finds out why they’re there. Now when I talk about the adjustments in the brain I’m talking about the incorrect method of seeing and the inadequacy of our senses. We have a limited color range, and we invariably see the opposite of what we see. In other words, “green” is any [every] color but green, and black is not a color. Yet we ascribe a color to it. Because of the angle of the lenses in our eye and their reflection upon the retina, everything that comes through the eyeball is upside down. And yet, when we look at somebody we accept them as being right side up.

14:40

Now this occurs in a sort of adjustment center in the brain, in which you get used to things by virtue of checking them out by feeling or something, and you find where the fellows feet are: they’re not up there, they’re down there. So we eventually sort of get used to it.

15:47

The inner mind observes this process – and gets a message from it. And the message is that we are very limited in what we see. And seemingly more limited in what we see than what we can project, or what we can create if we wish to. [?] 

Now don’t get the idea that there’s unlimited creation ability in the human being; there isn’t. This all occurs with a sort of safety valve; there are only certain things that can happen, they only happen under certain circumstances, and the circumstances are not always creatable. Once the circumstances are favorable, then things can happen. Now again, that may sound like double-talk, but we go back to Christ, when Christ was at the wedding feast they ran out of wine. And his mother came to him and said, “How about, you know, pulling one of your tricks and producing some wine?” And he said, “The time isn’t ripe.”   Of course, it sounded very lofty, when he said, “My time has not yet come,” or something like that. But I think it was a very simple translation there, that it was just [that] the pot isn’t quite ready, the soup isn’t done.

16:25

What happens basically is – this is pursued by people who are interested in – like myself, I think – in finding the source of thought and the nature of the human being, the essence of the human being. And in this pursuit you hedgehop right over all of the possible benefits that the individual might have or that the individual might do, if he wanted to linger there and create a few ripples. [i.e., create miracles rather than going to the absolute essence] Now the ripples aren’t negative, because of the fact that they’re possibly going to help someone.

17:08

What we come down to is that there’s – one of the things that holds us up from this, is that there’s [are] too many ways of looking at the world. Now we had this little exercise that we did here. And it showed that people don’t agree; the fact that we got true and false, and then that we got a change in the true and false categories, change in percentages, shows that the human being does not have a hard view, a hard understanding, a real, positive, definite certainty about what the world is and about what his relationship is to it. 

17:45

It is because of this that he can’t progress any farther, can’t go the step farther, and find ways and means of bettering his situation. I think that there is only one way of seeing everything – in other words, there’s only one truth. When we know the mechanics of this healing, there will only be one mechanical way to describe it. And the many (There are several others [methods?], don’t get me wrong.) I avoided talking about the divine assistance, if you noticed. I didn’t say that Christ had divine assistance. This is an easy way to write the thing off. Because divine is a meaningless word. 


18:36

If somebody wants to identify it, then possibly we’re talking about the same thing. If you’re talking about energy of a spiritual nature. And then it’s very possible that you could say that the God-element in man comes to the front and enables him to do things. But as far as the bending of some – let’s take the concept of, the common concept of God is something that’s bigger than the cosmos, and yet, very much concerned about whether we would live happily after death or whether we get burnt up, incinerated for a few million years, because of our inability to judge properly.

19:21

So I think that this is an – we expect or we’re building a fairy tale of too great a size, that this being that we like to point toward would have the conscious direction to hear one little animal down here calling out his name and saying, “How about you healing Joe Doakes?” My feeling is, [from] the observations I’ve made, is that Joe Doakes generally gets healed by the energy of another human being. 

19:58

And quite a few of them don’t believe in the same spiritual leaders. We have healers in the Moslem religion, and they are just as effective. In fact, I remember reading a while back that one of the people in Africa invited Billy Graham to a healing competition, down in Africa – which he turned down. Of course, he would have been off his, out of his territory, and he might not have been as effective as he would have been here. These are factors. This happens in certain environments better than in others.

20:36

But it gets back to this thing of – we don’t have a clear-cut, the human race doesn’t have a clear-cut [idea] about medicine even. And that’s the reason the child’s parents got the million dollar suit. It was because the doctor knew the drug would do a certain thing – [but] he didn’t know the 101 allergies or combinations that might occur with different types of protoplasm, or different conditions. So the result was he did damage.

And the same thing occurs with the business of healing. People do not know exactly what happens, so they ascribe to it a noble cause, and the rest of the people are very reluctant to argue with them on that point. That’s something you don’t do; you don’t discourage a man about that which he believes. That’s one of our Pollyannic foibles that we follow. 

21:32

Now I don’t want to discourage – I’m not talking to downgrade religion. I believe it’s a necessary thing. I believe it’s a very helpful thing. [comments to one of the guys] Without it the human race would be in bad shape, and I do believe it’s a step that enables them to climb to higher and higher understandings about their own nature, and about the nature of the cosmos. But I think sometimes they get bent out of shape, you know, that everything can be ascribed to it, if you want to.

22:11

Well, we go back to – some of these other talents I wanted to mention, was this x-ray vision that people have. I found out that it’s not unique. There was a boy, about a 14 year old boy in South Africa that they could take up in an airplane, and he could look through the ground and see oil deposits. And he was very accurate. Now, I was talking about this to someone the other day, and they said that Uri Geller had also done exactly the same thing, and had been able to spot oil from an airplane. Psychics have gone down to – we had one of our speakers on it  [who had] gone down to Florida and they [had] flown over the Bermuda Triangle, and came back with the vision of an underground city, underneath the water. And supposedly they checked it out later and there were enormous slabs, similar to the stones in the pyramids, found underneath the water.  

23:10

So there is – some people do have this ability, although it’s not -  they don’t have it in every field: they’re able to do one thing. One person’s able to heal, another person’s just able to see more clearly.

23:31

So I came to this conclusion that our healing is basically either scientific or what I call “innovative”. And the innovative covers a wide range. The innovative is anything from a person going to a faith healer – and believe me, that may do a lot of good. I’m serious. When someone gets sick in my family I don’t turn my back on anything, especially if they’re seriously sick. Because – again, this reflects the belief-status of the human mind. And the belief status has a whole lot o do with the controlling of an illness. 

24:09

But the innovative way also has to do with simple little things like the way you cross your fingers, perhaps. Now I’m peaking, you know, for want of better terms. But there’s a tremendous range to this business of tokens and talismans and this sort of thing that people swear by. I feel that – it might take many years to look into them all, and I haven’t. But I don’t discount them either.

24:41

But I have found this, that there is a method. There is a method of diagnosing, and there is a method of helping people, and I believe that this is very important, and I think that possibly the rest of the lectures that you’ll hear me giving will be along these lines, and will be along what I call a direct-mind approach, a direct-mind science rather than one of let’s say ...
xxx
[gap in tape –dm version and mj version]

25:17

...if I can find them, yeah, here they are.

Now, the first one is: 
51 I think that man’s mental and social problems will be solved best by old-fashioned religion.

Now, it doesn’t matter. I think that some of these questions are – they just exemplify a certain attitude from a certain segment of the population. They may be true in many instance, but not all true; they’re not true for everyone. I think that some people probably would be better off if they joined the old-fashioned religion and maybe other people wouldn’t. But it gives you an idea of – but anyhow, I’m curious to – did we get any statistics on that? We didn’t write those down, did we?

26:19

What would the average person here think? Would you think that was true or false? Would you say that it was true, that we could solve our problems by going back to old-time religion? [show of hands] You say it’s possibly true is some cases, yes? Well, we have a couple here, I guess; I don’t see any other hands

26:44

Now ...

52. All religion of an organized, conventional type has failed man completely, and man must look to unconventional neo-religions or cults for mental rescue. 

Now in case you’re not familiar with that, I could read it again or explain it [strange noise in recording – do over? No – Jaqua version has same noise.] It means that our old-time religion has failed and now we’ve got – up to the new ones on the horizon, the ones that’s just been recently brought in – they may be old ones that have just been brought into the country, or they may be some new slant entirely, of whom they call a cult. How many believe that this is true? [show of hand] About 6, 7, maybe 8 people.

Okay ...

53. Psychiatry today is the answer to our mental difficulties and social adjustment.

How many believe that this is true, that psychiatry is the solution? Supposing you have mental troubles, is psychiatry the solution? Nobody thinks it’s true? One?

54. I believe that man is only a physical being, and has chemical or biological remedies ... 

That’s pills and let’s say physical methods, is all that’s needed to produce mental changes, because the mental defects or sicknesses are caused by chemical imbalance. How many of you think that? Two? Okay.

Now again, I’ll give you my opinion on these when we get through.

55. Man is not immortal and has no surviving essence.

This is superstition, that the idea of a soul is superstition. How many believe that’s true? One?

56. Things which the body does have no effect upon the mind.

In other words, this is a belief of most modern psychologists, that whatever the body does, doesn’t affect the mind, basically, unless it wants to believe that it should be affected. That what hurts it most is the belief. How many feel that this is true? None, evidently.

57. Sexual experiences do not affect the mind.

Nothing that you do sexually affects the mind? None.

58. Drugs do not affect or harm the mind.

How many think that’s true? [none]

29:45

59. There is absolutely no way to ascertain the existence of life after death.

Any true’s on that? You say it’s true, that there’s no way to find the existence of a soul – is that what you put your hand up for? 2, 3, 4, 5.

60. There is no way to find the soul.

We’ll go to 61 because 59 and 60 are pretty much the same thing.

61. The physical man with his reflexive ability has stumbled across scientific wisdom, with which the collective brains of mankind will sooner or later master the accidental mass called the universe.

I’ll say this more simply: that man is just a reflexive creature, and together [with] his fellow reflexive creatures have stumbled across technical knowledge which will enable them to become master of the universe in time. Is that true? One, two ...

62. The brain cannot find the mind or the soul.

[gap in tape dm same as mj]

[file 3 ends at 31:03]

== File 4 ==
Total time: 31:00

00:00

Q. Can or cannot?

R. Cannot. [show of hands] [counts to 9]

Okay, approximately nine.

Now that last one seemed to be the most true. We didn’t keep track of those. [didn’t write them down] But, now, I believe the last one, number 62 is true. Of course I think you were kind of bored with this whole thing, or more of you would have put your hands up. [laughs] Because the brain is a bit of protoplasm. Especially if it’s dead – we’re talking about the inert brain, not something with synapses vibrating. The brain itself can’t find anything; it’s just protoplasm.

00:53

So this was the only really true one on the whole sheet. And 55 is undecided: “Man is not immortal and has no surviving essence.” And my reaction to that is there’s no possible way to determine either way. There’s no possible way that we can prove with what we consider logic that man has a soul or that man has no soul. There’s no way to prove the point either way.

But the rest of them are predominately false, such as 56. Things which the body does have no effect upon the mind.

Now the reason I wrote these down was because if you go back and look at them, they’re pretty much of a barometer of whether the people present would care for anything in the line of spiritual research. Because if a person believes that the mind cannot be affected, why, they’ll do what they please. If they think that they can take drugs and they [it] won’t affect them, they’ll cook themselves out until they’re not capable of doing any deep investigations of a subjective nature, which requires all the energy of the being. 

02:11

So each one of these questions bears upon that. 56. Psychiatry today is the answer to our mental difficulties. As I said before, psychiatry is an experimental process. And everyplace I go, when I talk about this, I bring this picture. I think it’s out of Newsweek.  And this is basically what they’re doing. It’s drugs for the mind. This is a typical case that exemplifies or symbolizes the case of the kid who got the hypodermic. I remember talking to a psychiatrist once, he wanted to know a lot [?] about his patient [?] And I said, “What are you diagnosing this fellow for?” And he said, “We haven’t got any diagnosis yet. We just want to talk to him.” And I said, “What for?” And he said, “We want to know his thoughts.” And I said, “What do you do with him when you get them?” And he said, “Well, we’ve got a drug for every thought. So we’ll make himself think something else.”

03:17

Were there any questions, or any other department that I have not touched on that you would like me to touch on?

Q. ?? aware that zapping ?? yourself or ?? self? 

R. I believe you can to a certain degree. But it doesn’t work as effectively. I believe that – I studied certain cases – when I’m talking about zapping, I don’t believe in using zapping to heal, for instance. I think that what makes a lot of people ill is the state of mind. You can get into a defeatist state of mind – you hear many stories of people who got ill – maybe they didn’t get ill, but a case of fetal inversion, where a person would decide they wanted to become a baby again.  And they would get into this hangup by trying to make themselves younger every day. And they’d convince themselves they could, and they would eventually go back to where they had to put diapers on them. And they never recovered. They’d die in that; they just go backward until they die. 

04:27

Now this is what a state of mind will do to you. You can make yourself very sick, and terminally sick. You find the same thing with people who have cancer. The ones who make up their minds that they’re going to do something about it, live quite a bit longer than those who figure it’s hopeless. And the ones who give up immediately seem to die immediately, too. They go into shock. They believe they’re done and they go into shock. Other people who are determined to survive – they’re lost out on the deserts or frozen wastes and things, and they come in, and it’s almost super-human abilities that they’d manifest.

05:09

So I think that the first thing, is to not kid yourself. Don’t think that you can just tell yourself that you’re well and you’re immune, and the immunity will occur. But I think that there is a way of what I call holding your head. And this is the cure. The cure. I didn’t specifically try to lay out a blueprint here for the method of what I call betweenness. This is carried out by a system of betweenness. And I used to think sometimes that Houdini  had it. He described [that] when he pulled his tricks, that he waited until his head was just in a certain position. And then he knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was safe. Like when he’d be doing a jump from one airplane to another or something of that sort. 

06:00

So this is the formula. But I don’t like to go into it too much because – first of all, I don’t think it does any good to go into it unless there’s a certain amount of training. That if a person tries it – you hear stories of this, incidentally; I think the book The Magnificent Obsession. ,   Have any of you read that? This is another one of those instances where in a strange book ... Colin Wilson’s  The Mind Parasites,  is another one. The strange power of the human mind. It’s in fiction – because this thing is not scientifically established, and can’t be scientifically established, because it goes contrary to science. It wouldn’t work if you predicted it. This is the amazing thing: if you predicted it, nine chances out of ten it wouldn’t work.

06:54

I was amazed at this. They made a movie out of Magnificent Obsession. Rock Hudson was supposed to be the young doctor who had married the doctor’s daughter. And the older doctor had heart trouble. And he was continually giving away money, and this puzzled Rock Hudson – I can’t think of the stage name – but some people finally got the idea across to him that the reason they thought the old fellow was giving this money away was because he was gathering some sort of spiritual power, which in turn was promoting his well-being or health.

07:36

When Rock Hudson learned this, he went out and tried to do the same thing; he gave his services free and he played the savior, so to speak. But it didn’t work, because that’s what Rock Hudson was doing: deliberately flaunting it, see what I mean, for a certain purpose. So it failed. When I saw these circumstances written into this book of so-called fiction, I realized that that writer, that author knew something. That he wasn’t going to give the whole formula for it, but some intuitional minds would pick it up. 

08:17

It’s just like here today: I think some of you pick up what I’m talking about – [or] maybe it’s just so much rambling to you. And which is the way it’s supposed to be. I think some people, if they had the intuition, they’ll sense there’s something more, than what’s, let’s say, spoken of with great difficulties. It’s very difficult to talk about subjective things, and things that are so subjective that sometimes the speaking of them negates their power.

08:44

There’s an old adage, for instance, a correlation of this in Eliphas Levi.  The old formula was: “to know, to dare, to do, and to be silent.”   Now you’d say those first three sound very good, but why be silent? Because the voice, the speaking of it, causes the power to dissipate  – and  also causes many more people to speak about it, and builds up counter-belief. Because what one man can do, another man can undo with the same type of mind.


09:20

There’s another instance I was thinking of – I’ve forgotten it, I was going to mention it, of the use of this. But Colin Wilson’s book is very good too. He builds it up to mammoth proportions in talking about getting a group of people together to locus their heads and earn this trick, and all simultaneously, for the purpose of stopping wars or creating political climates, or something of that sort.

09:50

[pause – good source of white noise]

10:00

Q. I have a question.  the feeling the mind is ??

R. Dis-associated.

Q. inaudible

R. You can’t place any great importance upon it. You can’t be proud of the fact that you’re doing it. Because basically you’re not. I mean the individual human body is not doing it, let’s put it that way.

10:34

Q. You said this is a state of mind – how would you go about ??? 

R. Oh, yes. Yes.

Q. ??? Is that a state of mind?

R. Yes. Yes, that is. But you see, the thing is that this world, this life is a state of mind. And you have to go along with that. For instance, the whole world, the whole visible picture is an illusion. The whole world is basically an illusion – and yet we have to believe it, or leave it. And in the process of accepting it and believing it, it can be very painful – until we suddenly get tired of the pain and say, “Hey, coming down to fine points, this thing doesn’t exist.” And immediately the pain will leave – if you can have that realization. And it is a philosophic realization. It’s not autosuggestion. I’m not talking about autosuggestion.

11:39

Q. inaudible, possibly Do you have a realization right now?

R. You can’t have it all the time. You can’t have it all the time. In other words, when you’re hoeing corn, that corn’s there. But you can transcend the cornfield if you wish. If it’s a crisis. Now the same with the common cold. There are different ways you can get around the cold. There are different ways you can get around ordinary sickness; there are different ways you can bring the dead back to life, or keep them from dying. But it’s expensive as hell – because that’s a transfer of human energy. You can hold them with their energy. Gurdjieff was supposed to have tried seriously to do this with his wife; she was dying of cancer, and he kept her alive for awhile.   But eventually she died. You’re not going to turn the world backwards. But you can cause a certain ripple, let’s put it that way.

12:39
In the final analysis, it’s not worth it. And of course this is part of the reasoning that goes with it: Suppose you’re ready to heal somebody, and they’re dying. And this becomes a tremendous ego trip, if you heal somebody. But you know, if you’ve got the understanding of the real nature of the world, that it doesn’t matter if they live or die. Then with that – you can possibly leave the thought planted, and something will happen. But if you think this has to happen, then your head’s out of gear. See what I mean? If you get worried, or have a compulsion, or if somebody’s got a gun at your head, it won’t work.

13:29

Q. Are you saying that the point of your lecture is that we should have a habit of looking at or questioning – like with ?? heal a common cold, or another type, like when they walk on fire, or ...

R. Well, 

Q. ?? boundary?

R. Yes. What I’m saying is that there’s a tremendous lot – I know there are things I have done, with myself. First of all, one thing, I don’t particularly care what happens. So not too much happens. But I do catch a cold. This winter I had a very serious bout. It was caused by driving clear from California, with a cold in California, not stopping to get medication. And I just got consistently weaker and weaker, and I was running into cold weather out of warm weather and that sort of thing. I eventually got the cold and I kept it – until a certain point, and that point was when I got angry. When I got angry, the cold left within two or three hours.

14:39

So I’m not saying that there’s always a solution – the solution is not always a predictable thing, is what I’m getting at. One of the things about all esoteric phenomena – we talked about science a little while before. [but] When you get into this type of healing, then it has a different type of proof. For instance, we lose the predictability. If you predict in this situation, it doesn’t happen. And it’s better that it occurs this way. 

15:14

For instance, the top experience that man has, which they call nirvikalpa samadhi, is not predictable. And if it was [were] predictable, he [a man] would fake it. People who can predict spiritual experiences of a high order, they wouldn’t be valid. You would never know if they were valid or not, because of the simple fact that they somehow learned the symptoms from somebody and faked them. And maybe even kidded themselves into believing it. And I’ve seen occasions of this, where people say, “Oh, I had a spiritual experience.” And I’d listen to it and I’d find out that they were, they hungered for it so much that they were like the little girl in church – they suddenly saw a vision of Jesus or something.

16:00

So consequently this is one thing where the prediction is almost sure to defeat the purpose. Whereas in science, basically, or the pursuit of these things. All but this one type of healing [?] – it’s not predictable. If it is predicted, why, you can almost rest assured that it won’t happen.

In fact, this is, again, one of the things that convinced me that possibly Christ did have some of this. Because he didn’t want anyone talking about it, if you recall. He said, “Go and tell nobody.”   Because if a lot of people heard about it, they would maybe swing the other way and build up hate for him, or try to lay traps for him, to show him up as not being proper or something. And I’m saying this about almost any healer.  

16:59

Q. Of the two experimental methods, the first was based on anonymity and the second was not. Your conclusion was that values were flexible, and yet the two sources of data are different.

R. Yeah, well, I don’t know, exactly what you mean ... 

[At this point Rose doesn’t realize that the questioner is changing the subject, and some confusion arises.]

Q. Okay, first off, the individual is guaranteed invisibility. The second one, the individual is not.

R. What do you mean he’s guaranteed invisibility?

Q. He’s unknown.

R. Oh. Well, he’s unknown until something happens. That part’s true. Because if it were something – they were known – because of like I said, Edgar Cayce was known.

17:59

Q. The way you were gaining your data, your information that you’re using to analyze, and using to support the plasticity of values, the two ways of preventing your data, are not the same.

R. What do you mean?

Q. The first method permitted anonymity. The second method does not.

Frank. The second time was a show of hands; you just asked people to respond without putting it on paper. That’s what he’s saying.

Q. Yeah.

R. Oh! Okay. I thought you were referring to the philosophy, not the experiment. You mean it’s not a valid test.

Q. No. I’m questioning your conclusion, which is plasticity of values.

R. Yeah. Subject to change. Even percentages. This is the type of things that all of your – JB Rhine’s experiments were based on, the number of people who guesses – just guessed – and approached correct guesses. It doesn’t matter whether they believe it or not, permanently, [?] it’s the matter that for a period of time they change, their belief.

19:06

Q, [somebody else] When this was done at that other place, where they ... 

R. No, the other time – i just thought because – we had two men up here, running through the papers and adding them up. 


R. [Well, we did that to save time] But the point behind all this is, and the reason for the 51 to 62 questions is, naturally I’m throwing something out to get a reaction on whether or not people are interested in studying the mind, or in, you know just living a day to day life, that’s all. And accepting the answers that the so-called experts, the so-called authorities hand them

19:59

When I think also that these [magicians] are experts, and they are experts who have come down through the ages. But we chose to, because they weren’t heads of corporations, or heads of religions, we chose to ignore them.  And some of them of course maybe were eminent people in their religions.

20:16

Q.  Are you saying that once you spontaneously develop, all of a sudden you become a healer, or the healing power comes to you ?? ?? become an Edgar Cayce or a Jesus Christ or somewhere near there, ??  ?? had to work on it and come back...

R. Well I think it varies a bit with different people. Because I told you about my father-in-law. He would have periods of vacuums, where he was out getting drunk, or, you know, bagging around, and he couldn’t do anything. Then he would go through a periods of reorienting himself back into the proper state of mind, which he called, you know, getting back on the track, or getting right with God. And then once more he would be potent.

21:18

Now we’re talking about the zapping type of healing, or the transfer of quantum energy-healing. But the other thing, it doesn’t, I don’t think that it, the only moving part is the mind. There’s no use of the lower type of quantum energy, that is, the physical quantum energy that’s projected. There’s another operation. And if there is a subtle quantum exchanged, I wouldn’t be able to identify it. All I know is it happens. It’s more subtle than spiritual energy – let’s put it that way.

21:53

Gary. inaudible

R. I can’t hear you.

Gary.  ??

R. They don’t believe in medication. Christian Science.

G. ??

22:34

R. I think that what they believed in works, to a certain degree. The mistake is, it’s just like the, one doctor tries to heal all ailments. I knew a Christian Scientist very well – I worked with him in Babcock and Wilcox, up here in Ohio years ago. And I’d point out to him that they had never put a leg back on. That the Christian Scientists had cured people of let’s say internal ailments, which you couldn’t put your finger on, but the fellow with the missing leg – he was never reimbursed for that leg with another leg.

23:14

And also this idea of, I used to say, “Well, they say faith moves mountains. But I say it won’t move it on top of people who don’t believe it’s going to move.” Because they have a counter-faith. So what you’re dealing with is a mass belief of mankind. The so-called paradigm that Chilton-Pearce  speaks of, which we have created and believe in, as being a – that’s what it is, that’s what we have, there’s something that’s – it is by agreement, by universal agreement.

23:41

So consequently your faith doesn’t dare to run counter to that paradigm too strongly, because you’ve got too many people believing in the paradigm. So you have – little miracles are performed within the paradigm.

23:57

But the thing behind Christian Science was Mary Baker Eddy’s   concept of a universal mind – which I am in favor of. I believe that this is the force we’re talking about. I don’t like to name stuff – if you name stuff you provoke an argument because somebody’s got another name for it. It’s the same thing but it’s got another name. But Mary Baker Eddy hit the thing on the nose – but the followers of Mary Baker Eddy thought you could do a tremendous lot with it that you couldn’t; that’s my belief. But it is a universal power.

24:33

Q. Two things: first of all, your comment ?? you did mention the American Indian  ??  because I think this has been happening continuously in history and even in the present time ?? have the controls, medicine men ?? direct-mind power, zapping

[gap in tape – same in dm and mj versions]

25:02

R. ... known for a long time that the children throughout the United States – and this was the turn of the century that I heard this reading [was] given, that my mother told me about it. But they had schools in the Midwest where they had Indian children, Chinese children, and American, you know, invaders, the ones who were moving in. And all of them had higher IQs than the American, the colonist, the people who were moving west. The Indians had the higher IQ, pretty close to the Chinese. Now when I’m speaking of Chinese, we had a lot of Chinese coming in from the West Coast to help put the railroads across. That’s when these were being mixed in the schools.

25:55

I came to the conclusion that there’s a trait among the Indians though, that is a frustration as the result of wisdom. There are a tremendous number of Indians who are so smart they don’t believe in going through the foolishness. You go out west and you’ll see Indians out there who are – I think some of them are getting foolish, they’re becoming taxpayers – but the smarter ones are staying out in their hogan and saying, “The heck with that. I’ll spend the rest of my life in communication with my inner self, or nature, whichever one I choose to do.”

26:38

But the highly technological existence in the factories and the cities, and matching wits with the commercial-financial world – I think are going to take all the Indian out of the Indian. But – [laughs] – I’m married to about a quarter-Indian – was married to her. And I found this out about them, that very few of the ones that I met were, give a damn about education. And yet they had a high IQ. When she went in – she refused to go to school, she went in, she decided she wanted to be a nurse, and she took a GED test and got a very high grade. She went into the nursing school and took another test after she had, when she was graduating, and got a 99 percentile, with no high school education at all.

27:37

And also she had the ability to know what was happening at a distance. The Australian aborigines – knows what’s happening over the hill.  He goes into – I don’t know whether you’re acquainted with this or not – he goes into a little, he goes into his self, he consults with what he calls his older brother, and his older brother tells him where the rabbit is. He throws his boomerang over the hill and hits the rabbit. It’s out of sight, but he has that direct-mind ability. 

28:04

Well, we label those people aborigines [primitives]. I believe that we can learn something, if we – the people in Australia have been watching this happen for the last hundred years and don’t show any curiosity. I’m saying, why can’t we look into that? But I’ve known this about my wife. I spent years and years for instance, all my life, studying esoteric philosophy, and I feel as though I’ve achieved some things. My wife absolutely refuses to study anything. And yet she knew. She could go away from the house and tell me what I was doing, when she came back.

And I said to her, “Aren’t you curious about your existence, your soul, the finding of some surety [certainty] for life after death and that sort of thing?” And she says, “I have the absolute conviction that God will take care of me and there’s no sense in me worrying about it.” That was it. [laughs] But I feel that this is the angle that we just don’t see. 

29:11 [in Jaqua add 38 seconds]

I’m amazed that they don’t publish some of the IQ findings, and that they don’t look into some of these powers, like I said, that the American Indian had. I think that there was a – I used to feel – I’d go out there when I was a kid [early 20s?], out west, and I felt that they – I’d get close to them, and maybe try to talk to them, and I felt they had a contempt for the white man. And I felt it was pretty well justified. I mean, I felt that, you know, I knew what was going on: “What’s this guy bothering me for? IP don’t want to talk to him. He’s got nothing I want.” 

29:48

Q. Well, I think that for such a long time, ?? whatever, American people as a whole scoffed at Indian people, saying that they’re not dealing with the real world and they’re not being logical and realistic. And now there’s a new wave of people examining the spiritual side and people attending lectures like yours, a turn, to recognize that there is something more than what you ??..

R. Yeah. Oh yeah, I feel that we, it’s a mistake – that’s what I’ve done, I think it’s a mistake to close all books but one, to shut your mind off to all avenues of speculation or experience. I don’t mean to go have experience, I mean to look at other people’s experiences and sort of solve the problem of where they came,  how they came about it. Can it be duplicated?

30:50

Q. Two more things. One ?? clear up comment?? about, go out west to find Indians First of all, do you find ?? population  ?? is the ordinary ?? [ next file: alright, so they can’t leave the reservation and have ??  The second one ...

[break in tape]

[file 4 ends at 31:01]


== File 5 ==
Total time: 30:57

00:00

[repeat of last 50 seconds of file 4]


Q. ... The second one, the question I wanted to ask you, are you familiar with Mr. Silva of Laredo, Texas who developed the Silva mind-control method?

R. I’ve heard of him. I thought he was from South America or someplace ...

Q.  No, he’s from Laredo, Texas. He’s Mexican. Are you familiar with it?

01:08

R. Yes, I’ve heard of it. I’ve never gone through it. I’ve known people who have taken Silva Mind Control.  ,   

Q. ?? a lot of people talking about it

R. Well this is the thing that I – I’ve looked into practically every cult that would allow me to look into it or I that could get a book on. And I find this out, that there’s a lot of nice talk, of, “Oh, this is the way the cosmos is, and if you do sweet things then the world will become sweeter,” and all this sort of thing. But very few of these great formulas, of what I call the guru-movements have anything. They have no system by which you can become anything except hypnotized.

02:01

Most of them will lead you into hypnosis. And it takes sometimes years for you to get out of it. And I more or less – I’ve looked into quite a few of these mental groups, or the ones that pretend to show some mental power, like Scientology. Scientology started off with Dianetics, but after it became a multi-million dollar venture, it became more complex, and made tremendously more claims, in its ability. And I don’t see anything that leads you in Scientology, for instance, to development.

02:41

Now I’ve heard that Arica – there’s an outfit called Arica  – that’s the one that’s from South America – I’ve never heard of anybody coming through these things [as an accomplished person]. And also the great healing techniques, that cost thousands of dollars. Scientology, you can spend a fortune in it and come out just the way you went in.

03:01

People have gone to Primal Therapy  for instance and paid six and seven thousand dollars for the privilege of screaming, and felt better – for a short time and went back, had to go back and pay another six or seven thousand dollars so they could scream again. They should have taken aviation – they tell me they scream when they dive to relieve the [air] pressure. They would have got it more cheaply. But I feel that the whole – one thing that I’m quite sure too, that the people are getting kind of tired of is the endless succession of perhaps mental systems that don’t clearly lay down a discipline.

03:46

Like Edgar Cayce, to give you an example. Edgar Cayce was a genius. That’s what I write in the book. I went down and looked the place over.   he was not only a genius, he was almost like a unique mystic, almost like a savior, you know, in his ability to help people. Yet he didn’t seem to know how he did it. He couldn’t create another Edgar Cayce. His son is not psychic – I’ve met his son – if he’s still living. When I met him he looked about 50-55 years of age,  and that was 20 years ago. But he has a grandson.

04:23

But all they’re doing is replaying yesterday’s tapes, yesterday’s cake. There is nothing new coming out of there. And the man himself – every chance I get, I refer to him, because of this, he’s unique; he had this direct-mind ability. But the thing is, I know of no system – and if Silva does, I’d like you to put me in touch. I’ve had people promise to send me information on it, but I never got the complete thing. I’d like to see their schedules, or their program if such exists. But of course I also know there’s a tremendous price put on a lot of this stuff, and if there’s too much of a price then I don’t want to see it. [laughs]

05:08

Q. Are you aware of the Transcendental Meditation movement selling advanced techniques ??

R. I hear they are selling, yes. here and there. I  don’t know whether they’re selling as well as they did before, but I hear they’re selling stuff.

Q. Do you think that people are getting something?

R. Well, maybe what they believe they were going to get. I don’t say that it doesn’t help, somebody. But personally, I wouldn’t – I can sell you a mantra for five cents if you want a mantra; it won’t cost you a hundred bucks. And I don’t know about levitation, I could teach you levitation – I don’t know if he has taught levitation either. But I think it has kind of run its course, to be honest with you. Again, there’s nothing, there’s no real, although he does have a system, he  does say, “Hey, do this.” But if you look at it honestly, if you want to be honest about it, you’ll find that there’s an autohypnotic technique. And if this is necessary to get you off booze or dope it’s good. But keep yourself, always remind yourself, “I am hypnotizing myself for the purpose of getting off X. So that when I get off this thing, I going to go back and try to de-hypnotize myself and function freely.”

06:38

Q. They’re selling quite a few $3,000 packages to ??

R. Well, that shows that P.T. Barnum was right. [laughs]

Q. Do you think that if enough people raise their level of consciousness, they can train the people who haven’t?
 
07:06

R. I think, yeah, I think there’s a degree of that. I think that, you know, there’s a saying, “Where two or more people are gathered together in my name, I am in their midst.”   Meaning that their level of consciousness is raised by virtue of the reason they’re coming together. Even if you don’t have a person who has a raised consciousness in the group, if people come together for a certain purpose, I think that their consciousness is raised.

07:36

Q. That was one of Maharishi’s reasons for starting a community.

R. Well, all of the gurus that come out of Asia will tell you that they’re a channel for energy coming down from upstairs. And not only that, but you can’t really put the blame on them, because they blame their guru. And this is the endless responsibility-chain. Also let’s say the name dropping: they say, “I’m not doing this, I’m just doing it for guru so-and-so, who’s dead, and he did it. I’m just doing what he taught me.” In fact, I’ve asked people, “Why do you believe this?” And they’ll tell you – that their guru told them. And their guru’s infallible. And I’m sure you’ve encountered some of these people. And they’ll tell you; there’s no logic. They don’t pretend to be logical or reasonable. I don’t believe in logic either, but I do believe in common sense. 

08:33
START – 8:44 IN MJ 
I remember one time a fellow showed me some little gods that he had whittled out of something, and he said that they were divine. And I said, “What do you mean?” And he said, “Well, that’s the deity.” I said, “why don’t you worship the dog? he’s alive.” And he became enraged. But I thought it’s much better common sense for a person to worship a living dog than it is to worship something that could have been whittled out of the outhouse door.

09:02

And yet people, 20th century Americans, are rushing in great numbers to believe something that doesn’t answer to common sense. But – don’t get me wrong, though – all of this stuff has a place, in my belief. It all has a place. Because certain people, [in] certain states of mind, especially people who have lost their state of mind due to drugs, have to cling onto the fantastic, perhaps, in order to save themselves. The only thing is: do they know when to let go, after they cling?

09:43

You can find health and healing by the surrender to any figure. I don’t believe it’s limited to Christ. A lot of people get off of booze by making Christ their master. I believe you could say Buddha just as easily, or you could say Krishna. And the same thing would happen. Because it isn’t the idea of the living entity, it’s the idea of the surrender. you have to get off of this idea that you’re able to do something. And when you get off of that idea, then you start from zero and you’ll accomplish something.

10:19

Basically, most alcoholics will tell you, “I can quit whenever I want to.” You know, “I just take a few drinks; a quart a day, that’s all.” And after awhile, though, he says, “Hey, I’m shot. I can’t stop.” And when he’s able to settle down and say, “I am a drunk,” and ask for help, then he gets helped. 

So I think the same in any addiction. These avenues have been salvations for people. I don’t particularly make light of them, except, until they start thumping me on the head with their Bibles. Then I protest. I don’t need to be free of my addiction. Mine was strictly mental.

11:09

Q. 

R. Oh, no, I believe that where there’s smoke there’s fire. IO believe there are too many sightings. Incidentally, that too, down through the ages – Charles Forte’s books  will give you inklings of this. And perhaps even that’s what they were talking about in the Bible, when they were talking about the fiery chariot, you know, something that had an exhaust. 

11:38

Q. 

R. I’m suspicious, yeah. [laughs] What’s your name? What planet? Jose? Okay.

Q. ?? kundalini – do you know anything about that?

R. Kundalini is this raising of the quantum energy. In nearly all the writings on yoga you’ll encounter it. there’s a process – I don’t particularly buy the whole, all the terminology. But I am quite sure that a person transmutes physical energy into nerve energy, and from nerve energy into projectable spiritual energy. Now their analysis of this is that there is a powerhouse at the base of the spine, and by certain meditations and concentrations you can raise this. And I don’t think that it’s that magical; I think that it occurs, the so-called kundalini occurs when you’re – if you’ve ever taken a course in something that’s difficult, like mathematics, and you’re working with symbols, and they’re almost subjective. Algebra is  subjective science, almost.

13:12

So you belabor yourself with it and you keep it up. But you hold your concentration on that. you have to pass the test, you have to fill out so many problems to get your degree. So you’re going to belabor yourself with it. And after you do this for so many months, there’s something that pops in your head. It’s like a light bulb goes on, and it’s the eureka experience: you say, “Wow, now I know what they’re talking about,” what a + b = c is [means], see. And this is because of a sort of sweeping up – and you feel it in your body. You’ll feel something pulling from your tail clear to your head. I mean, this happens. And this is what the yogis are referring to.

13:57

Now almost anything that the human mind pursues, or wishes to pursue, strongly enough or dynamically enough, will cause the same effect. And if it’s not an algebraic answer but a spiritual answer or a psychological answer, the same thing will occur. now, of course if they want to call it – there’s a book written, it’s an enormous book if you want to look into it, called Thinking and Destiny  by Percival.  Percival gets away a lot from the, you know, he doesn’t advise yoga so much, but he uses some of the terms. he claim, he names little channels that this atom, this supposed seed-atom is supposed to go up and down.  I don’t think you’ll find these in surgery. I think that it’s – maybe it’s just a visual glorification, for the purpose of creating a visual [ization] so that the energy will actually travel. It helps it, so to speak, I don’t know.

14:55

I’m quite convinced, though, that you do transmute energy. And this incidentally is the basis of the zapping-healing. you sacrifice. The zappers have to transmute and control, and be very careful where their energy goes, in order to wad up enough to hit someone with it.

Q. ?? are you transmuting energy to somebody else?

R. No, no. See, what, all your basic energy comes from food. So that your comprehension of algebra, your comprehension of God or heaven or any theological truth that you might discover, basically would not exist if the food were shut off. It’s that simple. That the consciousness motivates certain chemicals that run back and forth across the synapses, activating and deactivating them – without that food to furnish those chemicals, you wouldn’t have the synaptic action.

15:58

So consequently, you go back and say, “How does this get up to the synapses? How does it get up to the convolutions or what I call the coil. It’s the equivalent of a coil in an automobile,  the brain is. Well, you eat food, is what happens. And in some respects maybe even choose the type of food for better results. And this food becomes part of your body. Mostly fat, mostly muscle, and glandular as you get older. The child not so much, but when a guy gets past puberty he has a tremendous amount of this energy that goes into the glands.

16:29

Now the funny thing is, this is the reason that a child cannot be enlightened very easily. so when you hear these cases of little kids getting enlightened, I have my doubts about it. because the transmutable energy goes from the glands, not from the fat stored in the hide. It’s the ability to transmute glandular energy. And this is the reason that when the transmutation occurs, it’s almost a physical feeling in the gland. And the mysterious place where the seeding of the glands, is [as?] where is quite a few glands located [sentence] It’s an area where  there are all sorts of glands.

17:08

So consequently, the inhibition of that action, the inhibition of the glandular action, and the almost conscious loss of glandular energy [?] and a disregard [for this] – once a person starts to transmute that, he develops a disregard for sex. because it’s secondary to the joy of victory, the joy of accomplishment – the double joy. So he starts to become kind of a spiritual person, and that’s the label they put on him; actually he just conserves his energy.

17:40

but he’s able to think, and this is the formula for intuition. This is the formula.: shut the spigots off, and the intake. Shut the intake off, except for the necessary food in order to get by, and shut the spigots from running. And then you have the computer with a problem and it has to answer. the problem circulates through the computer unril it gets an answer. Bit [if] you let all the spigots running and all the doors open, and you’ll have bats flying in and out, see.

18:16

Q. ?? generation ??

R. Oh, I don’t know. I really don’t. I think it’s good to eat certain things. I think it’s good to not give a damn what you eat. I’ve seen it work both ways. I associate all the time with younger people who are a lot sicker than me. they’re trying their damndest to get all of these special herbs and special teas, and farmer John’s peanut butter and Aunt Mamie’s jelly and this kind of stuff, because it’s supposed to have the missing vitamin. Incidentally this is caused – a lot of the young people are feeling inadequate is because they’ve lost their quantum energy in great heaps and gobs through heavy dope experiences. heavy booze will do it too. you can drink yourself to where your nerves are just like hot wires. And it takes a tremendous lot of rebuilding. you can’t rebuild it by another drink, and you can’t rebuild it by switching from uppers to downers.

19:31

So I think that – I don’t know how the change in diet is going to affect them. Because I think the state of mind [which?] is stronger, and the chemical loss is so great that the diet isn’t going to help. It’s going to take time and inhibition of what caused the loss. That’s ?? part. you know they say you can eat almost anything. Those macrobiotic people have a thing going for them, and they say you can transmute almost any type of food. And I think you can, largely, if you don’t waste too much.

20:17

Q.  ?? Christ ?? experience ?? feeling good. Do you ?? the same thing?

R. No. No. No, I went through a long period – it wasn’t fasting but it was deprivation, from the time I was 21 until about 32.  But nearly everything that happened since that time was the result of what happened then, in that period of time. I know that my intuition was sharper. You get – unless you develop when you’re young, you get stupider as you get older. A child has more perfect intuition than an adult. But an adult seems to dull himself by training himself to believe in the paradigm, and functioning just within the limits of ythe paradigm, getting by andd that sort of thing. So he loses that child-like ability. And this is the meaning of the saying that you must become as a little child to enter the kingdom of heaven. It doesn’t mean you’ve got to be an idiot. It means that you have to be very simple and very pure if you want to have clear thoughts. That’s heaven. heaven is clear thoughts.

21:32

Q. 

R. In where?

Q. 

R. Yes. Well, what they are is – this fellow I talked to was from Steubenville, [the man interested in healing] and he came up here. But I came up also and looked into them. And what it is, is a – I found that it was basically  group of certain doctors, of different professions, like a dentist, a chiropractor, a medical doctor, who formed a holistic society [Check Chautauqua schedules and recordings of non-Tat speakers] and through that holistic society were able to advertize. They had a captive clientele, because they allowed people to join for $25 apiece. So then they held monthly meetings to check up on them and see if they needed any medical help. So a ot of holistic societies are nothing more than – they’re engineered by doctors and people who aren’t as busy as they’d like to be.

22:37

But they won’t tolerate research. They won’t tolerate real psychic research, and they won’t even tolerate too much – they just ignore it, if you bring it up. But it’s even nutritional research – because we got into the business of searching for the proper chemicals, and one of our speakers in fact, one of the members of the group is a, took a special course in nutrition, he’s a graduate biologist  He would up very happily going back to his previous diet of greasy chicken. [laughs] [gap, no loss] He’s much happier now than he was, taking his Lithium and other ...

23:26

Q. 

R. Yeah, yeah. He threw the pills out. “For a ling time, didn’t do a thing for me.

Q. 

R. Oh yes, oh, yes.

Q. ?? reprogram ourself ??

R. Oh yes. This is the biggest problem. It isn’t a simple thing. It isn’t a simple thing to find the truth. But that’s the first truth, that we’re animals. And the second truth is the method of divorcing yourself or escaping from the animal. That’s the whole thing. The first truth is that we’re basically animals. We don’t dare kid ourselves.

24:13

Q. 

R. Yeah, well, but everybody hides it. There’s a big acceptance. And i think of course that – there’s a purpose in that too. this – the whole thing of [plan of Nature] – and I look upon what’s going on today as a tremendous farce. everything is phony, but we are so proud of the fact that we have this phoniness, you know. We have cars that are very pretty, but if a dog runs up against them he dings them. they rust out – before the motor’s goy 50,000 miles on it the body’s shot. We buy houses that are ready to fall down, and they pass the FHA standards. And we go down to the dentist and he wants to pension himself off on us. It takes him three, four, five appointments to fill one lousy tooth. 

25:09

And this is the great American acceptance of baloney, so to speak. Well, we get enough of it from Nature, if we want to. If we just want to be good respondees to Nature, why we could emulate the billy goat and have a circus on the way to the cemetary.

25:31

Q. you mentioned ... [

[gap in tape]

25:38

R. ... and then it becomes plain. But now why this is imposed, why this paradigm is imposed ... It’s projected – from what I call the universal mind. The universal mind is like a prop room, from which this is all projected – and agreement – and I pointed out it occurs before you’re born. because a baby doesn’t even question it. It’s not something projected by the parents. You know, you hear a lot of this stuff that – one segment of society is blaming another segment for projecting. For instance, the women are blaming men for deliberately causing them to be women. This is nonsense, they were born that way.

26:15

Q. 

R. Yeah, right. There’s a belief status. But you can take some very basic little things and demonstrate that that which we think we see, we don’t see. It’s like a hologram. If we look at a hologram and imagine or be convinced – like i remember, they had one here in Pittsburgh someplace, with a wagon floating in a cylinder. And you could look underneath of it, from every side of it, you could see the sides of the wheels and everything. But that was just “painted” on that paper inside that disk.

Now if we can be fooled that completely, or if a whole army of people can be fooled by a mirage, where is our point of certainty? Where is our point of reference from which we gauge reality? And it’s only when you take that and go with the possibility of it – and when you get beyond it ad do realize that this is a, it’s like an LSD dream; it’s like wax, it melts and flows. And the real thing behind it is eternal-impermanent. But why this game is played? It’s like a game – that’s all. It’s the only thing I can figure. Who’ pulling the strings behind the curtain? I don’t know.

27:34

Q. ?? I was just wondering, in regard to ?? have anything to do with increasing the consciousness of people ??

R. [laughs] yeah, if it goes off it might. It might expand their consciousness. They might have bits of consciousness all over Pennsylvania.

28:08

Q. What would you say consciousness is?

R. Well, consciousness is basically – life. It’s basically life. But it isn’t the soul-consciousness. In other words, it’s body-consciousness. When you talk about consciousness it’s basically body-consciousness. And we don’t really have mental consciousness until we’re aware of consciousness. When a person is aware that he’s alive, then he has a mental consciousness.

Q. ?? Ouspensky says that the soul ?? 

R. I don’t know why he said that. Gurdjieff says that, yeah, that the soul goes to the moon. I think he’s talking about astral bodies. yeah, talking about astral bodies there. I don’t know ...

Q. ?? much.

R. Yeah. Well, the reason for that is he – Gurdjieff built up a cosmology or cosmogony  or whatever the right world is, in which he believed that the universe was the big, evolving thing, and the human beings were of just microscopic importance compared to it. So that this planet is a child of the sun and the moon is a child of the earth, and they have ways of nurturing each other. And the only way, because of the space, there’d have to be something that’s almost astral nature [to do this]. By that I mean spiritual material. So they’re producing all these human and animal entities in order to get a little bit of ectoplasm.  .It sounds way out to me, I don’t know.

29:55

Q. ?? getting also that ??

R. This is the thing. That you have to realize, this is one of the things that all of modern science seems to reject, is that there’s nothing greater than the human being. And I say that simple common sense would say there’s what I call a law of progression. Wherever there’s a gradation of ten steps, there’s a possible eleventh, if you look. Wherever you see an upward climb, there’s possibly an endless upward climb. And the fact that there is a gradation from the bacterium through the paramecium through the worm, the chicken eating the worm and the snake eating the chicken, and the man eating the snake or something of that sort ... 

30:41

You’ve got a tremendous parasitical system, all interdependent. And all of a sudden we become the king and nothing eats us. But from my viewpoint, we are the most eaten, and the least free. the least free. Every action – and we are dominated, not with the chicken ...

[break in tape]

[file 5 ends at 31:02]
== File 6 ==
Total time: 26:42

00:00

[... feeding on] your exuded quantum energy. You exude it.

Q. 

R. Do they?

Q. 

R. yeah. Oh yes, it’s absurd to think that we created the universe, or that there’s somebody up there who likes us and all these cruddy little creatures are, that he creates this place for them to play, and everything’s at their disposal. To me this is the height of absurdity, that’s all. The plan doesn’t show it. The gradation shows that it might go on forever, that the things that are eating us – and incidentally, I don’t know that the ant sees us, or thee bacteria sees us, but our life is dependent on that bacteria. So that he may think that somewhere there’s a god walking around with two legs. You know, that created the whole world just for that bacteria to play in. And actually, we’re using him.

01:11

Q. I didn’t know that ?? you were saying ?? absolute ?? something about that.

R. Well, by virtue of the use of the word. I carefully chose the word soit couldn’t be superseded. [laughs] Absolute.

Q. ?? [long]

R. I’ve read accounts. I think, of course, i have no choice except to accept until disproven. My hunch is that they’re doing something. They’re doing something. I don’t think you need – as I said, a lot of surgery’s been, they’ve been doing it for thousands of years. And I’ve done a little surgery myself – - I – fortunately I did brain surgery on a goat. But the goat lived. I cut out ppart of its brain. I had to, because a horse had kicked it in the head and drove the skull down through the brain. It was a very young goat. So I took a razor and sterilized it and split the hide and the tissue underneath and took out – of course a lot of the brain just floated out with the blood clots. But I cleared it up and sewed it back up and it healed. It ate as long as you fed it, but it was paralyzed. See the medulla had been busted. So it just – you had to keep it in a sling. So one day I sent it to heaven. [laughter] I chopped its head off. It’s not too complex, brain operations, if you know anybody who needs any, send them around. [laughs]

03:30

pause

Well [pause] [talk starts breaking up]

Frank says something] Yeah, I had another one in there but I didn’t think to tell you.

03:51

Q. 

R. [away from microphone]

Q. ?

04:35

R. Yeah, yeah, well, you know, this is a, the thing is – what is your name?

Q. Jim Wright.

R. Jim? Okay. Thanks. 

04:51

R. What I think is that there’s no – the reason there’s not too much written on it is because I don’t think the ones that are real can explain it. they can’t explain it properly, and – I think there’s a lot of people predicting, you know, pretending to have precognition, but they’re guessing. And this of course doesn’t do too good for the public’s appreciation. So consequently the book ?? were written by them, it’s doubtful ...

Q. 

R. Yeah

Q. 

R. Yeah, just anywhere. Did you ever get this ...

Q. 

R. Yes, I’ve had those things happen to me. Yeah, I’ve had them happen. I saw a – yeah, that’s the trouble, they’re all, they’re generally all ...

Q. 

R. Right. Just like my experiences. I’ve had a lot of different experiences, and they don’t fit. In other words, I couldn’t establish a profession, and I couldn’t consider myself a predictor, or things of that sort. To give you an example, I’ve seen diseases inside people’s bodies.  And I’d swear – I had a student, I gave a lecture at Brown University in Rhode Island, And this young lady came down. This Bill, the fellow who just made the announcement, he was over there at the time – they had a little group going. And she got curious about what we were doing and she came down to West Virginia, And we had a little sitting which we used to call rapport, you know, people just sitting together and be quiet, trying to pick each others’ head up. 

06.51

And I just realized I could look through her. And I told her, I said, “You’re a – I see a, it looks like a string of rosary beads, that just come across your chest like this.” She says, “I’ve had trouble with ...” I also saw down in her female organs an inverted black funnel. And she was only 25 years old or so. And I said, “Hey, if that’s what I see – maybe I’m wrong,” – I don’t know – you don’t know for sure because you can’t open the door and look. 

07”21

And I said, “It’s strange to me, but I’ve got a feeling there’s something wrong with you.” So she said, “It’s funny you’re saying that, because I was up in Pittsburgh” – she’s working up here – “I had a chest cold and I went and got an X-ray. I’ve never gotten the results from the X-ray back.” So she went back up here to Pittsburgh, came back up and she got the results. And she had the guy type it out, the doctor, what he’d seen on the X-ray. “Line of granuloma, midline of the lung.” That’s exactly what it was [that I had seen] I saw that as clear as day.

08”02

And the other thing, she knew there was something wrong with her, she didn’t know exactly what it was, but – she was bleeding too much and constipation and everything went wrong every time she turned around, there. But if somebody came up to me and said, “Hey, how about looking at me and seeing what’s wrong and why” – I could no more do it than the man in the moon. And the same way I think – nearly all of these cases of genuine precognition, is that it doesn’t happen regularly. Somebody will see something, they’ll see a train about to wreck or something and they’ll describe it, and then two hours later the train wrecks, 15, 20, 100 miles away.

And of course the theory I have about that is that there’s no such thing as time. That you see something in the matrix of the matrix of the space-time dimension. Everything is, for instance, our life is not – we do not get old. \we experience a passing ribbon, a space-time ribbon, tike 3-dimensional ice, that;s already established. But our consciousness [is] watching it. It’s like somebody sits you down in a room and runs a Gone With the Wind film and says, “How would you like to play the part of so-and-so?” “Okay, we;’ll take it, deal with it.” And you experience this part in life, until the life is over.

09:32

So consequently, I think this explains your, all of this stuff that is seen in the future, Because there is no future, There is really no future. And it’s only, but we get a glimpse of that. It’s that we’re in a state of belief that there’s a future. We seemingly can’t function unless we have the belief. If you stop and think, you’re like, I figure you’re 40 years of age – if you look backward, you can’t have any sentience of time. In other words, stuff seems like yesterday. I’m 63 years of age and I’m utterly surprised sometimes. Like I come up here and see the change in the city. When I came up here at 15 years of age, they were building he Cathedral of Learning, the rocks were laying around on the lawn. And there was an entirely different breed of people here.

All of this seems to be in change. It isn’t. It’s just my view of the life strand. My feelings about myself and my consciousness of myself doesn’t change. And I’m amazed sometimes. Of course, we remember certain things and seem, tend to forget others.

11:41

Q. But there’s a subjective consideration in what you call the animal ??

R. Yeah, I don’t know why we’re subjected to it, that’s the point. IP don’t know why we’re in it.

Q. 

R. It’s by belief.

Q. 

R. Yeah, it’s a common belief. See, there is no – in the final analysis there is no – see this stuff here is, what we’re observing here is the rate of vibration of certain atomic parts, which if they vibrated faster or slower would be invisible. Now, we take that which we see this, seemingly visible, and we break it down: we say, for instance, these atoms are like the solar system, the electrons are so far apart in them you think, “How could you ever arrive at a solid substance with all that distance between the nucleus and the outer electrons?” and that sort of thing. |And then you go a step further and analyze the electrons, and the theory is that they’re composed of force – nothing solid. 

Q. 

R. Yeah, yeah. \so that it looks very solid and you can work on it, and ?? [anvil?]  you can hit it and it’s hard as hell. But in reality it’s force. And the force is subject to mind power. This is the great discovery that I was trying to put across to you tonight. That there is, sooner or later, we’re going to find, go back to the primitive days and learn something about the control of this force field with mind power.

12:39

Q. Is mind power just another vibration of atoms? ?? 

R. No, no. See, I look upon the whole [old?] atomic-structured universe, anything composed of atoms, electrons, it’s ?? electricity, see. This is all projection, this is all illusion. The mind ius a dimension. This is a dimension. And it’s almost like we walk into another room: this is so different. And we walk in – this is a fantasy land when we’re over there. When we’re over here, that is a fantasy land.

13:04

Q. You’re talking about a spiritual ?? right?

R. Yeah, right. 

Q. I’m kind of trying to deny that  ?? spiritual is just another material

R. Well, I would have done rhat ...

Q. At a different rate of speed  ??  ectoplasm ??

R. Yeah, but the ectoplasm all comes apart, yeah. |The mind itself – it’s just like we know for instance that there’s a – s photon. A photon isn’t molecular; a photon is a different type of thing, and it travels in between atoms and that sort of thing, and doesn’t seem to be affected by them.

13:40

Everything – we’ve got degrees of subtlety, it’s like I said, it’s gradation theory: if you’ve got subtle things, there are ones that are infinitely more subtle, very possibly. Subtlety itself becomes a state of being. Color can be a state; not a coloration alone, but a state. Green ccan be a state. 

Q. If there\s a color in space, there’s no way of reflecting it, and you don’t know what color it is.

R. Yeah. But all I can tell you is from my personal experience. The experience I went through, in which I looked back – almost like an acid – but I never took [had never taken] acid. I took some acid when I was 50 years of age, but I had this experience when I was 32 [30]. And I had no doubt about the construction of the universe at the time.

14:28

Q. Is it too personal to ask what the deprivation was, between 21 and 30?

R. No sex, no booze, no meat, no coffee, no tea.

Q. You became a hermit.

R. Yeah. Because I pretty – tore [?] everything into it. And I think it paid off. Of course, for ten years I didn’t think it was, I thought I was kidding myself. But one day I had a, my head popped and ...

Q. It was ?? an absolute ??

R. Well, I don’t – that’s a nice word, but what happened, I died. I died. And this is the only true way of finding the answer. You have to die. And I had heard this, but I never tied it in. That’s the reason I say, it was unexpected and it wasn’t premeditated. I didn’t know what was happening. I was always raising hell with myself and threatening to go out and get drunk, because nothing was happening. But one day it happened. Under peculiar circumstances.

15:27

Q. You can’t even describe this ??

R. Yeah, I’ve written it in the book.  It’s in the back of the Albigen Papers.

Q. Any suggestions what I should get there, the Albigen Papers or the Psychology of the Observer?

R. The description of the experience is in the Albigen Papers. The method of arriving at it, if you wish to arrive at it, there’s a formula in the Psychology of the Observer.

15:51

Q. ? the ones you Xeroxed ??

R. The Transmission Papers? That’s the one in which we were talking about this thing called kundalini, the transmutation of energy. See this is mechanical. For instance, I believe that everything is held in tension, in a state of tension. We have to cause tension in order to transmute. You don’t do it easily. It’s like education: you have to apply a certain amount of tension to it. And this is the reason some of the old Zen systems applied a hell of a lot of tension, consistently until something happened. And I don’t know that that’s, you know, there are not too many people who will take that path, and I don’t know that that even has to be done that way.

16:40

But the other is a [the] Meditation Paper. Two papers, two books. The Transmission Papers is basically just what I explained to you: the transmission of food and the transmission of an experience. Now this experience can be transmitted from one head to another. And we’ve had this happen. This happened in the group. And it will happen sometimes with – I don’t have to be there – but occasionally we get this thing called rapport. That’s what I mean by direct-mind.

17:13

The main idea that I advise people to find direct-mind, was that if they were able to have this rapport they could have, they would know what the experience was. You wouldn’t have to be defining it in terms of objective words for a subjective experience. But the one thing about it, the world disappears, beyond a shadow of a doubt, ,   and something infinitely more real, and infinitely more un-describable, [sentence] because – the mind even draws pictures of it. for convenience sake. And each man that has it, I recognize, when I read their accounts – I’ve only met a few people in my life who had it. I’m surprised I met them, because they are very few. 

17:53

But each guy describes it differently. Because his mind has to somehow create – you know, the universal mind once more has to create something that is translatable. But in the real experience itself, there-s nothing, you come back with a definite conviction you’ll never be able to discuss it. And believe me, for ten years I never said the right thing.  Because I would just describe – what would happen, people would think I lost my mind. 

18:29

Q. Have you more or less kind of rejected, or not rejected, but set aside most of the kind of wisdom of India, as we used to call it, the various, ?? thousands ...

R. No, I think there’s a lot of good that, I think there’s some good, honest people over there too. 

Q. A lot of them are charlatans.

R. Well, they come over here, or they try to get over here if they can ...

Q. That’s what I say – when you ...

R. You eventually have to – when you see people placing a monetary value on something of this sort, especially if it-s an exorbitant amount ...

19:18

[break in tape, electrical hum – Rose is talking, but away from mic – can hardly hear

CHECK TAPE to verify!! ]

22:27

[Hum stops bet can’t hear Rose, too far from mic. ]

[Tape ends at 26:45]
== Footnotes ==
  Url: http://www.direct-mind.org/index.php?title=1980-0313-Are-Your-Values-Working-Pittsburgh 
For access, send email to editors@direct-mind.org 
  1979-1128-Values-Ohio-State-University
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Mesmer 
  Featured in Fate Magazine, August 1974: http://selfdefinition.org/frauds/norbu-chen/norbu-chen-3-fate-mag-cover-august-1974l.htm
  Some consider a fraud but vouched for by astronaut Edgar Mitchell, who also vouched for Uri Geller. Edgar Mitchell notes are here: http://selfdefinition.org/frauds/norbu-chen-2-and-uri-geller-by-edgar-mitchell.htm  Skeptic notes are here: http://selfdefinition.org/frauds/norbu-chen-1-william-nolan.htm   Also see Max, the Crystal Skull, supposedly given to psychic Jo Ann Parks by Norbu Chen.
  Given name was Charles Vernon Alexander II according to William Nolan.
  Maharaj Ji, aka Prem Rawat. Divine Light Mission.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prem_Rawat 
  Also see: http://www.prem-rawat-maharaji.info/index.php?id=24 
  Mahatma Gurucharnanand (now called Charnanand) and others.
  “Woman with issue of blood.” Matthew 9:20-22; Mark 5:25-34; Luke 8:43-48.
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentecostalism 
  Ambrose Worrall: http://selfdefinition.org/healing/ambrose-alexander-worrall.htm  
  Also see Peace of Mind, 1984, both Akron and Irwin. 
  Slim Cunningham. See 1981-0120-Psychology-of-Miracles-Pitt 
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gina_Cerminara 
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_Cayce 
  Vernon Craig, Wilmot, Ohio. died March 2010. http://onetanktrips.wordpress.com/2010/03/13/komar-the-magnificent/ 
  Isis Unveiled, volume 1, chapter 5, page 125.  http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/isis/iu1-05.htm 
  Blavatsky lists 3 dozen examples, and then references Bulwer Lytton: Vril – The Power of the Coming Race. (1871)  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vril   PDF here: http://selfdefinition.org/blavatsky/ :
  Gurdjieff says 12,000 years.
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapila 
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tecumseh 
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crazy_Horse 
  See the Wikipedia article. “New Madrid earthquake.
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alchemy 
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paracelsus 
  As detailed in Franz Hartmann’s book on Paracelsus: http://selfdefinition.org/magic/paracelsus/ 
  Detailed description here: http://selfdefinition.org/magic/alchemy/dr-karl-shuker-grow-your-own-homunculus.htm
  The article at Wikipedia reports that Paracelsus said the popular misconceptions were false:”He clarifies that the homunculus’ origins are in sperm, and that it is falsely confused with these ideas from necromancy and natural philosophy.”  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homunculus 
  From Franz Hartmann’s listing of Paracelsus’ terminology: “HOMUNCULI - Artificially made human beings, generated from the sperm without the assistance of the female organism (Black magic).” http://selfdefinition.org/magic/paracelsus/hartmann-paracelsus-02-explanation-of-terms.htm 
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Hartmann
  Magic White and Black. Available at TAT Foundation: http://tatfoundation.org/magic.htm 
  Note: There are a number of references to Paracelsus’ views on these subjects that appear in footnotes to Rose’s lecture “1992-0326-Truth-Lies-Ultimate-Reality-Pitt” that won’t be duplicated here. 
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trepanning 
  John 2:1-11. “My hour has not yet come.”
  At a Chautauqua.
  Possibly Dr. Wilbur Franklin, who was a Symposium speaker (e.g., Maryland 5/21/1977) and studied the Bermuda Triangle. See TAT Journal, Spring 1978, “An Interview with Professor Wilbur Franklin” http://www.searchwithin.org/journal/tat_journal-03.html#2
  November 12, 1979: Drugs for the Mind – Psychiatry’s Newest Weapons. Cover illustration is here: http://selfdefinition.org/psychology/images/newsweek-cover-drugs-for-the-mind-1979-1112.jpg 
  Need reference; possibly Kraft-Ebing, “sexual inversion”.  possibly “paraphilic infantilism” – see Wikipedia:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraphilic_infantilism
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Houdini 
  Airplane stunt described in: Harry Houdini for Kids: His Life and Adventures with 21 Magic Tricks and Illusions at Google Books.
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnificent_Obsession_(1954_film) 
  Rose incorrectly identifies the author as Booth Tarkington, who wrote The Magnificent Ambersons.
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Wilson 
  PDF here:  http://selfdefinition.org/colin-wilson/ 
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliphas_Levi 
  From Transcendental Magic, Chapter 1: “To attain the SANCTUM REGNUM, in other words, the knowledge and power of the Magi, there are four indispensable conditions – an intelligence illuminated by study, an intrepidity which nothing can check, a will which cannot be broken, and a prudence which nothing can corrupt and nothing intoxicate. TO KNOW, TO DARE, TO WILL, TO KEEP SILENCE – such are the four words of the Magus ...”   From The Great Secret: “The great secret of magic, the unique and incommunicable Arcana, has for its purpose the placing of supernatural power at the service of the human will in some way. To attain such an achievement it is necessary to KNOW what has to be done, to WILL what is required, to DARE what must be attempted and to KEEP SILENT with discernment.”  Pdfs here: http://selfdefinition.org/magic/ 
  The opposite of a prayer or mantra.
  See Fritz Peters, My Journey With A Mystic, page 83. PDF here: http://selfdefinition.org/gurdjieff/ 
  Matthew 8:4, Matthew 16:20, Mark 8:30, Mark: 9:9, Luke 9:21.
  According to V. Ganesan, great-nephew and long-time attendant of Ramana Maharshi, many miracles happened around the saint but he insisted that the accounts not be written down.
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Chilton_Pearce 
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Baker_Eddy 
  See Mark Jaqua, “The Magical World of the Australian Aborigines”.  TAT Journal Issue 10. (1980) http://www.searchwithin.org/journal/tat_journal-10.html#2 
  Rose’s friend Robert Martin was associated with the Mind Science Foundation in 1958-59 (info from Martin’s book, pages 84-89 in the pdf). The Mind Science Foundation collaborated (mid 1960s) with Jose Silva, developing tests to validate the Silva Mind Method. So it’s likely that Martin would have been the source of this information for Rose. http://www.silvacourses.com/research/research_of_effectiveness.htm 
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silva_Method 
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arica_School 
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primal_therapy 
  A.R.E., Virginia Beach, VA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_for_Research_and_Enlightenment 
  Hugh Lynn Cayce (1907-1982). 
  Mathew 18:18-20, but “two or three,” not “two or more.”  KJV: 18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Fort 
  PDF here: http://selfdefinition.org/yoga/ 
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_W._Percival 
   Ida, pingala, and sushumna.
  Wikipedia: “An ignition coil (also called a spark coil) is an induction coil which transforms the battery's low voltage to the thousands of volts needed to create an electric spark in the spark plugs to ignite the fuel.”
  Rose married in 1950 at about  the age of 33. http://www.richardroseteachings.com/about.html 
  Pittsburgh group member.
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmogony 
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ectoplasm_(paranormal) 
  Three Books of the Absolute. pdf: http://www.richardrose.org/ThreeBooks.pdf 
  From Ramana Maharshi’s Nan Yar: “Q. When will the world which is the object seen be removed? Ramana: When the mind, which is the cause of all cognition’s and of all actions, becomes quiescent, the
world will disappear.” page 4 of pdf: http://selfdefinition.org/ramana/Who-Am-I--Nan-Yar.pdf 
  “Sahaja Nirvikalpa Samadhi, the mind is dead”: http://albigen.com/uarelove/sahaja.aspx 
  See Alan Fitzpatrick

== End ==
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