1977-0311-University-Maryland-Baltimore

Return to list of all Recordings     See all Categories    Spreadsheet: Recordings-Source-List

Metadata repository: https://data.direct-mind.org/

Data Template

Title	1977-0311-University-Maryland-Baltimore
Recorded date	March 11, 1977
Location	University of Maryland
Number of tapes	Probably three 60 minute tapes
Other recorders audible?
Alternate versions exist?	1975-1119-Boston-College-date-conflict a.k.a. 1975-1119-Boston-College-misnamed. See note below.
Source	J
No. of MP3 files	6
Total time	6 time 31 = about 186 min. Tapes of 1975-1119-Boston-College-misnamed are 4 x 45 min.
Transcription status	Only 1st pass of first 17 min of side 1. Pasted Auto-AI from 1975-1119-Boston-College-misnamed on Dec 28, 2028, as in note below.
Link to distribution copy	http://distribution.direct-mind.org/ (need password)
Link to PDF	http://distribution.direct-mind.org/ Or try http://selfdefinition.org/rose/
Published in what book?	n/a
Published on which website?	n/a
Remarks	Auto transcript on this page begins at about minute 3 of File dw1, from the misnamed tapes of 1975-1119-Boston-College-date-conflict a.k.a. 1975-1119-Boston-College-misnamed. Rose talks about Gary Gilmore in the present lecture, so the date could not have been 1975, see notes.
Audio quality
Identifiable voices
URL at direct-mind.org	https://www.direct-mind.org/index.php/1977-0311-University-Maryland-Baltimore
	For access to this wiki or the audio files please send an email to: editors@direct-mind.org
Revision timestamp	20241228161904

Files = 6 x 31 minutes

Notes/Abstract

This is same lecture as 1975-1119-Boston-College-misnamed Tapes labeled such are a better version of the recording. But at file 1, min 9:45, Rose mentions Gary Gilmore, who was tried in Oct. 1976, executed Jan 1977. So date can't be 1975-1119.

Use tapes from 1975-1119-Boston-College-date-error for transcription and minute markers.

Sound has too much bass – muffled. Can’t hear with Bose speakers. Maybe try headset.

For 3/11/1977 Dave Mettle collection may be best—but use 11/19/1975.

Rose says "I was up in Akron the other day." Could be 1975-1009-University-of-Akron-missing-tape

which tape version is this from?

Transcription

File 1

Doron: ... he’s the author of the Albigen Papers and he’s the teacher of the Pyramid Zen Society. His lectures are very fascinating and illumination So without further delay, here’s Richard Rose.

R. Now I have to live up to that.

First I’d like to say a few things about Zen. I don’t know how many of you have done reading on Zen – we could take a poll - how many have? Looks like everybody.

Well, by way of explaining why we are the Pyramid Zen Society – we have nothing to do with pyramids, incidentally. The Pyramid Zen Society was formed before the craze for making little pyramids came out, before Flanagan wrote the book, I guess. But sometimes we get a lot of people that come, thinking that we’re into some sort of formulated Zen that has to do with Pyramids. The reason the name Pyramid was chosen was – in the beginning we didn’t want a name at all, not even the name Zen. Because as soon as you give things a name, there’s a connotation. And yet somehow you have to verbalize your drive, whatever your objective is. This [word] Zen came as close to our drive as possibly could be verbalized in a short term.

01:37

My first lectures at universities were given began at the University of Pittsburgh, and we went in to occupy a room and the people in charge said, “What’s the name of your organization?” And we had none, basically. I had been meeting with people for about thirty years without any organization, and we thought it would be good if it could perpetuate itself that way without too much formality, because the more formal you get the more you get into the evils of organization. You form a new religion or something and the next thing you know you’ve got a financial religion, the organization becomes more important than what you’re doing, and your wwhole work is meaningless.

02:24

But regardless, we found that in order to do things you have to have a name; you can’t come on a campus unless you have a name; so the first Zen study was called that, just the Zen Study Group. We just said if they want something give it to them, so we called it that.

02:43

The system that we use was already in operation, and it didn’t – well, I? wouldn’t say the word Zen was a perfect description of it, but it was the closest. Then when we went into Kent, Ohio, for some reason the boys chose the word Pyramid Zen, when they took it before the board , which had to agree whether they could use the premises.

03:11

Of course the word pyramid is used because it’s symbolic of the efforts of mankind; that almost anything that is done on any human level is pyramidal in form. Anything of any value is supported by a broad base of lesser value, or let’s say a more common type of effort. It takes a broad base of perhaps a million people to form a pyramid of which one person would be a millionaire. It takes a broad base, seemingly, of people of lesser interest, or less scholastic ability, to form a point at which would emerge a PhD.

04:02

And we can see this structure that permeates all human activity, and the same as in the spiritual world. The spiritual laws, incidentally, are very close to financial or economic laws. The same things apply because basically it goes back to human effort, and human effort all winds up to be pyramidal in form.

04:21

The idea, the concept of emancipating all of humanity seems to be very popular, that we’re going to emancipate everybody spiritually, and we’re going to do it possibly by missionizing, [a legit word] or by compromising with all elements of mankind, is sure foolishness. Nature doesn’t have things constructed that way, in the human makeup.

04:51

They tell a story that in certain monasteries in China that the monks begin the day with the pledge tto never cease their efforts, if it took thousands of years individually, to see that every living soul, every living creature reached enlightenment – that’s a big order. So, of course they didn’t hope this, it was rather facetious, possible, because they really didn’t hope to do that in their lifetime; it was a nice pledge to make in the morning.

05:22

Now we get into this business of, first of all, your comprehension. You have all read something; nearly all of you have read something on Zen. And what is basically the goal of Zen? You could get different impressions by reading D.T. Suzuki and Alan Watts. Or from reading Kapleau’s Three Pillars of Zen you could get another impression; he has a difference with Watts on technique and that sort of thing.

05:54 Then you can go back and read Garma C.C. Chang and Huang Po and you get still another idea. That possibly the material that the American public is exposed to in the line of Zen possibly doesn’t conform to the spirit of Zen as maybe laid down by Bodhidharma, if we can trust the history.

06:27

My first encounter of Zen was in D.T. Suzuki; I turned away from it at the time. I thought there seemed to be a lot history and a lot of unconnected material; I couldn’t find a system, I couldn’t find an end result that was described properly.

But it wasn’t until I met a man, Alfred Pulyan, , who practiced a system of transmission toward bringing people to a point of enlightenment, that I understood Zen, and why I didn’t get a better reading. I got it just by his reactions with me and his interactions with me and that sort of thing.

07:15

So that – after I met him then some of these other books started to make a little more sense – and some of them seemed to be absurd too.

07:26

Now what is the basic thing in Zen? Is it as Watts seemed to imply that there’s nothing you can do because there’s nowhere to go. And this kind of coincides with a comment about Zen writings – you find that in the writings, and it’s amazing that a man would write it and then continue writing material, offering it to the public – and that is that the man who knows does not speak and the man who speaks doesn’t know.

08:03

The thing is, if nobody spoke and no one wrote, you’d have no sutras, which they consider very valuable. Of course, the point is that if a person – I think in the translation of that may have been that if a guy talks too much, if he’s trying to sell something to the public, then possibly he doesn’t know as much as another man who keeps silent and acts more. I would be more inclined to believe that.

08:27

But there are certain little postulations that really throw people’s minds. And particularly a mind that is given o trying to find an easy way of doing things. If you’re defeated in life, if you’ve been let’s say frustrated and bombed out of your head by booze or dope or something, and somebody comes along and gives you a system by which you can arrive at a maximum enlightenment without any effort – you can lay on your back and go to heaven – that may be very appealing. But in the long run it doesn’t work.

09:12

So we hear in Watts occasionally his talking of arriving at a state of no-mind, that all you have to do is – well, we have another writer who talks of letting go. Now these are all true: the idea of letting go is important – but [it’s in] knowing how to let go, or how to let go [of egos] in the proper order. You don’t just go out and get drunk and stay drunk and say, “I’m not going to rally myself enough to resist.” That would be one form of letting go. Or Gary Gilmore may well have let go; he might have been considered a maximum self-releaser.

09:46

So there’s a lot of confusion. And there are other systems of Zen that seem to be physical. Whereby if you enter an order or a place and you pay a certain fee, which is generally enough to keep things is good fashion, and you indulge in what is called a sesshin – now this is the assembly-line production idea that appeals to both Japanese and Americans: “Let’s get this thing done in fashion. Let’s get it over and get back to our playing.”

10:21

And this is the thing that I run into a lot. That people say, “Hey.” One fellow approached me and said, “Why if you’re anything like Don Juan you can zap me with drugs, and I’ll be there. And then I can go back and continue what I was doing before.” Of course, if you did get really zapped, you wouldn’t want to continue what you were doing before anyhow.

But the American idea of hurrying to get things done and then getting back to a previous way of life seems to have influenced the Zen system. And I think Zen was influenced when it left India. I think when it left India and entered China there was a change possibly, and because of exposure for six hundred years to a certain type of mind, that was in China but wasn’t in India.

11:10

Then I see a change in it when it went to Japan, and we have more of an assembly-line production; that’s where you hear people shouting mu. They get a whole group of people locked in a room and they keep beating them with boards and shouting mu, and they reach enlightenment. It’s like the ordeal in a Nazi prison camp: after you beat a fellow so much he might decide to become a Nazi. He becomes convinced by virtue of there being no place else to go. And Lord knows how valid are these experiences that we produce under this type of experimentation. Or some of the eminent – and this goes back quite a ways – the keisaku, and some masters denounce it and say it’s unnecessary.

12:03

So basically what is this? What are we leading to? What good does it do you? Of course, that’s another American thing, utilitarianism; nobody wants to hear a thing they can’t cash in. “Will it make me more compatible with my wife or my neighbors? Will it help my business?” And it’s amazing that everything has to be equated with this utility value. “Does it make me more skillful?” People come in and ask whether it’s connected with kung fu or karate, and they’re quite amazed when it doesn’t include swordsmanship, flower arrangement, archery or motorcycle maintenance.

12:41

But basically it’s the deepest form of experience, the aim or direction towards the deepest form of experience that a man can have in his human life. I don’t think you can get any deeper. I’ve never heard of anything deeper than the described experience of enlightenment.

13:04

Now how many people really desire this? I often say you can tell by the number of people who respond to lectures and this sort of thing. And even the people who respond and come to lectures on Zen, very few of those – I wonder whether they get what they come for, if they really, really thinking that there isn’t something magical, like [that] there’s a formula that they can get to do something in a few hours or a few weeks and that sort of thing.

13:31

But let’s go back to the main idea or the main objective, is to reach the final state of consciousness, the final state of reality, which I consider absolute. And I think the old Zen teachers would also consider it an absolute experience, meaning that – the reason we use the term absolute is that all other experiences are relative. We have a bicameral brain , and everything only exists in comparison; mentally we have to compare with something else in order for something to exist.

14:06

The final experience, mental experience, is, as I say, when the mind is dead, as we know it, that the experience is an absolute experience. And this is the realization of what actually is. The relative world does not exist for you then, as you know it now; although you can come back and live again in a relative experience But momentarilly you live in an absolute experience.

14:37

Real Zen and Phony Zen

Now what is Zen and what is phony Zen? Is real Zen formality? [Does] the wearing or robes, the relative robes and shoes and cushions and this sort of thing give you an absolute experience? Maybe it will keep things in your mind a little bit, serve as a reminder. But there’s a tremendous lot of emphasis put on organization, people who get together and dress a certain way and perhaps have a little tea party that has to be a certain way, and meditate together, as if they couldn’t meditate separately. And this becomes a sort of ritual.

15:29

I’ve often mentioned the – the speed with [at] which a lot of us hurry to a certain point of the earth, thinking that truth is geographical. That only the great spiritual truths emanate from India, Tibet, or the orient. I found out that the majority of people who go in this direction for illumination wind up being attached to institutions very similar to the parental religion that they left behind.

So there’s no need to use the word Zen at all. What we’re talking about is the topmost human experience, mental experience, call it whatever you wish. We have the word enlightenment, and I would like to use the word enlightenment as opposed to some of the other forms, but enlightenment doesn’t seem to mean much, because it’s so commonplace. It’s like the word God. It’s abused. The word God is practically useless as a descriptive word, because it’s – everybody seems to be on a first name basis with the fellow. Consequently we have a lot of liars who are attaining livlihoods under false pretenses by virtue of a pretended relationship with God.

16:59

Four principles of Zen

Bodhidharma laid down – I’m going to give you his definition of what real Zen was, and I think nobody’s said it better; I’ve never seen anything better for it down through the years.

The first one is “A special transmission outside the scriptures”. This is how you’ll identify real Zen. I’ll read them off and then we’ll go back over them. 2. No dependence on words or letters. 3. Direct pointing at the soul of man. 4. Seeing into one’s nature and the attainment of Buddhahood or Self. The original was written Buddhahood, but the equivalent in our language is Self or God. By Self I mean capital-s Self. I distinguish between small-s self, which is the person you see sitting here, as opposed to the person you really are.

17:59

And this is attributed, incidentally, those four things, there are many writings on Zen, but this is attributed basically by D.T. Suzuki to Bodhidharma.

18:12

Now the thing is of course, we go back on this: a special transmission outside the scriptures. And this is what I meant a little while ago when I said the abandonment of “the pasture is greener on the other side of the fence”, the abandonment of the parental religion for something exotic and Asian. Thinking that we have to go over and climb a mountain and find somebody in some cave before we can find the truth. And of course the truth is in every human being, not anyplace else. You’ll not find it on the – you’ll not find it in a book or in a magical formula, you find it in yourself.

18:58

And this brings us back of course to – another thing that we see before us all the ime – I saw it when I was growing up and paid no attention to it. You’ll see it in a hundred or a thousand different books, to first know thyself. And there’s the formula. Of course maybe they don’t say, “Now, here’s the formula, first know thyself.” Bt strangely enough, once you reach the point where you really know yourself – this is capital-s Self now – you realize that this is the path or door by which you know everything. Now if that’s no clear to you, I ?? think it would be. ?? ??

19:44

But this special transmission outside the scriptures is basically talking about [basically refers to] fundamentalism. It means that you don’t have to depend on a written formula or a written scripture in order to find the truth. You may find [in that] something like the Tower of Babel; you might find confusion by getting into too many words, especially ?? that can be translated and interpreted.

20:09

So this is one path, one thing that happens to a lot pf people in this country young and old, that they come possibly from a Christian, fundamentalistic background, and they become incensed and indignant that it doesn’t answer their questions properly. And they go to Asia and start studying for ten or twenty years studying sutras, the Bhagavad Gita or something else, thinking that they’re ?? magic because the old man has to be stupid to say ?? wouldn’t hold water ?? outside the family.

20:53

No dependence on words or letters. Now this reinforces the first one. Words of letters – this encompasses our whole system of – importance we place on titles and authority, and even systems of – importance we like to put on certain systems or philosophies. It means no philosophies. You’re not going to do too much by arguing with someone else, to show just how brave you are. You’re not going to prove the nature of the universe by argumentation.

21:34

The third is the direct pointing at the soul of man. In other words, it’s a system by which we bypass the inkblots and the evaluations as much as possible, and go directly into yourself. Not to think about yourself, but to go directly into yourself.

Now Ramana Maharshi has a, if you’re acquainted with Ramana Maharshi, he has a good system of explanation of this. And he draws the [an] analogy with a camera, that we are basically like [when] a ray of light that is projected on a screen. And like the man in Plato’s cave, , we think we are the image that is projected on the wall of the cave, when actually we are the projector, or part of the projector. And the real person may be behind the reflection [?] – all we see in the visible universe are reflections or projections.

22:43

And so the more we study these shadows on the wall of the cave the more confused we become. That the only way to find the real essence is to pursue the way back through the source, back through the projector or the camera or whatever is projecting it. And this is the – it isn’t a question of so much verbalizing your trip backwards, or trying to philosophically trying to draw a blueprint of how to go back into yourself, but to just go back into yourself, to just turn inward.

23:20

Now, how do you do that, of course? And the last thing reinforces this somehow: Seeing into one’s nature and the attainment of Self. Now seeing into one’s nature – and how do you see into one’s nature? You’ve got to study the projection on the wall of the cave; you’ve got to start with that. And only when you realize that it’s a projection can you then turn and go back

23:46

In other words, we have a nature, we have a human nature – which most of us think we are doing. Most of us think we are doing the things that nature does through us. So that when you get to the point where you can see yourself acted upon, you’re able to turn away from that and start looking inside.

Psychology

Now in this respect we get into something, which is psychology. And I think that through this process of honestly starting with yourself, evolves – of course I presume that in many instances it’s a wordless psychology, because you just watch yourself committing errors. But it can be a written psychology as well. And I’ve come to look upon true Zen as the ultimate psychology. But current psychology deifies the physical body and pretends that nothing else exists. We have shelves full of books written on a particularly behavioristic psychology in which every action of a man is cataloged. They wire him up with certain meters and biofeedback machines, trying to find by this some pattern or some electricity which [that] will give you his thoughts, or give you some vibration of his soul or something or some proof.

25:26

But it’s like the splitting of the atom. You can split – one time I thought – I majored in chemistry when I went to school, and I thought that I would get into chemistry and prove the existence of reality by proving the true nature of matter. And I’d no more than got out of college but I came to the conclusion that I’d stay out of chemistry; it was a tangential thing that would go on forever.

25:46

And the same thing applies to all of this experimentation that’s going on with thought. Sure we’ll get a lot of new insights. But by the same time we’re getting into the dangerous thing in psychology and sociology, the idea of creating. We’re so capable now that we’re going to create behavior, we’re going to program society, the zombies. We’ll program the zombies, the robots. We’ll find robots capable of programming the robots.

26:22

But the thing is, when you look within yourself – well, I can only give you my opinion, of what I found, I tried looking within myself – I find that there’s nothing wrong. There’s nothing basically wrong to change. I don’t see any point in trying to change things. Trying to change things socially is a rationalization for [not making, or a substitute for] effort on yourself. Of course people – there’s an argument that goes forth that says you’ve got to change the world before you can take the time out to do any spiritual work. And my immediate answer to that is, “Who is doing the changing?”

27:02

The thing that pursued me all my life, the thing that caused me to look into these things as deeply as I did, was the fact that I knew that I didn’t know anything. I didn’t know even who I was. I watched myself doing things which maybe a week later, a day later, or an hour later I didn’t approve of. I watched myself making mistakes that caused trouble. Now this is looking into your nature. You look into you’re nature and you see these things happening and you say, “What’s going on? Who is running my mechanism?” And with an intense desire to study this, if you’ve got an intense psychological desire, that’s basically a self-analysis, that’s all you really need.

27:41

Personal Path

But my first step was into religion, of course. I was born and raised a Catholic, and I thought, “Well, the thing to do is go to church, and these people are authorities, they’ll tell me what the score is.” And to this day I’ve never found a minister [who could]. We were talking about one tonight over at the house. Where a man in Columbus, Ohio who had been a minister, he’s ninety-six years of age, and he candidly admitted he didn’t know where he was going when he died. Where? he says it’s just a matter of, you know, keep your chin up, be prepared, that’s all. And have faith, without hope.

28:19

And so what are we leaning on? What are these udders by which we feed ourselves, our complacency? Are the evils of the world based upon a faulty representation, a distribution of food supply, or are the evils of the world based upon an improper vision of what the world is? Are we going to argue with the engineer who designed this thing? Individually think that we’re going to vote, and by voting decide infallibly for the betterment of the world? Or are we going to look into ourselves and see how we should act in reaction to a pattern that existed before we were born? So of course that’s open to [your] desire; whatever you desire, that’s what you do.

29:10

But I became somewhat disgruntled with my adventure into the priesthood. And the only thing I got exhortations to have faith there. I have come to one other conclusion about something that’s very sacred ?? in Zen, and that is the right and the duty to doubt, not to have faith. That you have to know what you’re having faith in, before you have faith. I think that you have to have faith in yourself. I think that you have to have some sort of conceit that you’re capable of doing this trip, that you’re going to survive it, that it isn’t a problem that cannot be solved.

29:56

A lot of people say, “Oh, well that’s too big for me – trying to find out where I came from. Whoever figures it out?” No one evidently does if we’re all like the minister, the 96 year old man who was still waiting to find out. So it’s just looked upon as too great a task, and eat, drink and be merry. But after you’ve looked into yourself for awhile you find out that you can’t be merry. That your merriment is a state of mind, that’s all, imposed on you almost like a bait to keep you – it’s like the ... [repeated text]

[break in tape]

[side 1 ends at 30:31]

File 2

File 2 length is 30:51

1975-1119 has more text overlap

REPEATED TEXT: ... that you’re going to survive it. ETC ...

That your merriment is a state of mind, that’s all, imposed on you almost like a bait to keep you – it’s like the corn that you feed to a hog. If you take the bait, then you’ll serve some functional purpose in the biological aquarium of life. You’ll function, and die by virtue that you’re fattened up by your own vanity, so to speak.

01:07

So I looked around – I too took the path [figuratively] to Asia, to India, and checked into a lot of isms and joined a few, was initiated into several. And came away with as much disillusion as I had in my parental religion. I came to the conclusion of course that some of them were even worse. The big thing there was I was trading my devotion for somebody else’s financial success, in many places, and some of them are just, I found a lot of them were just more or less social institutions. Some of them there wasn’t so much money involved, but the people seemed to believe, definitely believe in what they were talking about, but it had just got to a social religion that had bogged down, and it was just a nice place to go.

02:09

I found – it was very similar to going to a church in this country. I went into the Vedanta temple on the west coast and I thought it was a very beautiful experience. But I didn’t learn anything there; I just had a very soothing experience from being there.

02:21

So I got into raja yoga. , I experimented with all these different mental processes. I had started into my search when I was twelve years of age. I was about twelve when they sent me away to be a priest, and I got out when I was about seventeen. And then I spent some time studying psychology; I thought you could pierce, by studying the mind itself, you could know what the soul was, if there was one; the connection between the thought and the brain, an [if] a person could find the contact point between the thought and the brain a person you could find what the human vitality was, what his essence was.

02:57

Well, I didn’t find it out quick enough then; I abandoned it [this] and went into checking out Spiritualism. I thought, “Let’s talk to the dead.” I heard that there were materializations that [where] you could talk to [them, the dead] and they surely would know where they’re at, if they’re spirits of the dead, and so we’ll go down and have a – I hunted all over the United States, incidentally, to find a genuine medium; most of them are phony.

03:17

And we did find one who could produce some entities. I didn’t make any sense out of anything that they said; they mostly repeated what you – if you gave them a question you got a like answer. But there were about – two carloads of us went to this place [White Lilly Chapel in Delaware, Ohio] from Steubenville, Ohio, and a lot of us put questions to these spirits that came out, such as, “Where are you?” and, “What’s it like?” and, “Is Jesus there?” And the answer was, “Well, we’ve heard about him.” And I thought, “That’s about like it in this country.” One of them said, “We have seen his light.” I get the impression that there is a certain mimicry.

04:00

If you want to get into the study of these materializations, there are quite a few books written on it. And this is a common them that runs through investigation of materializations, that there’s no, there have been a lot of materialized spirits but there has been no theology resulting from it. There has been no great revelation that said, “Here is exactly what will happen to you when you die; and here’s exactly where your cousin is,” even when the person standing in front of you is a duplicate of your grandfather or your father, brother or something of that sort. We’ve seen this happen. But brother Joe was smarter when he was living than when he was dead. And that takes you back to the Bible where it says, “The dead know nothing.” If these are the dead they know nothing, because they are just echoes to what you ask them. And I’ve done a lot of reading on this, besides this personal adventure, reading other people’s accounts.

05:00

So I didn’t stay long in that pursuit. I got away from checking out the phantoms and got into yoga, and I thought, “Well, that seemed to appeal to,” – everything I got into seemed to appeal to, when I got into it I’d think, “Boy, this is it This is the real answer. I’ll get this.” And two or three years later, and four or five thousand hairs later – I was getting balder all the time and – nothing was happening.

05:28

And I’d think, “Boy, maybe you’re crazy. Maybe you’re not supposed to know. Maybe nobody knows.” And then you go back and you read these books and it sounds very convincing. Your intuition says, “That man wouldn’t have written that way, why would he publish a book if he didn’t have something? Where there’s a lot of smoke there must be some fire.” So back on the head with the yoga exercises, and meditation, and several more years go by, and you feel like going out and getting drunk and forgetting about the whole thing. I never had the stomach for booze so I never could get drunk enough to get away from it completely.

06:06

But I would surely get disappointed with the progress that I was making. And I thought, “Well, who am I, to reach this?” We had a businessman in our group in Steubenville, and we were talking about this pursuit of truth. His name was John, and he said, “Rose, who in the hell is John, who is so important that he should live forever?” He said, “This is a fallacy in itself. You look around and there are two or three billion people like me on the face of the earth, and what the hell are we so important that we should put up this demand to live forever, or look for it even?” That the unlikelihood is greater than the likelihood that we’d be significant enough to survive death.

06:54

So it gets very discouraging. You find a lot of reasons for playing, so to speak. And I tried to find some reason, I’ll be honest with you. I’d get away from it entirely, and I’d have dreams of going and getting married and raising some kids, and trying to get wrapped up in the game of life. But every time I did, something would pop up and get my attention again and I’d find myself back [standing] on my head, doing the yoga exercises.

07:26

So – something did happen when I was about thirty years of age, quite unexpectedly. And I think certain things happen along the way too, to such an extent that I could not go back and play games. I hadn’t reached in that interim period any great illumination, but I got to the point where I couldn’t talk foolishly, I couldn’t live foolishly. In other words, I couldn’t go into a dance hall. I used to say that if you really want to see what goes oon in a dance hall, go where you can’t hear the music and watch their motions. And it would seem utterly grotesque that people would have to wiggle around, after working hard all day, go down there at night and wiggle around for just a little social contact. There must be a briefer, quicker way of making social contact without losing all that energy.

08:18

And I could see so many things that people did which just didn’t appeal to me; I couldn’t conform to it. I couldn’t get interested in who’s on first base. I couldn’t get interested in politics. I could care less; I saw the whole structure as a structure of fools, people thinking they’re going to change a system.

08:41

Consequently these are little milestones that you’ll get on, and you’ll think you’re not moving. But you’ll find that you can’t go back and play the games again. You just don’t have the stomach for it; you just, it doesn’t appeal to you. The glamour is gone.

09:01

Exaltations

This brings us now to a – I’d like to give you something of a definition of this maximum experience. Incidentally, in most of the books on Zen that you’ll read, you’ll hear the word satori. And I take issue with this word, because of the described experiences that come in the books on Zen with the word satori. Satori is defined in almost all the books I have read as a very brief “wow” experience. And enlightenment is not a very brief wow experience. So there’s something missing. And one time, when I looked upon all these words, when I was younger, I couldn’t see the difference – until this happened to me. But sometimes I thought, “What happened to me? Why do these people talk about another experience?” And I saw that there were definite layers, definite steps that you went through.

10:14

We hear of – there are a lot of words: samadhi, some call it nirvana, enlightenment, salvation (“I’ve been saved.”), eureka, satori, cosmic consciousness, kevala samadhi. And I thought, “Boy, that’s really confusion; it all means the same thing.” But it doesn’t. If you talk to people who have been saved, you get an entirely different vision of what their experience was from say a man who’s gone, accomplished the cosmic consciousness experience. And you can get these – there are books written on this. I don’t know how many of you are acquainted with Bucke’s Cosmic Consciousness; he has a whole treatise full of them. There’s another man, Johnson, who writes of them too. I forget the name of it, but he has a compendium of case histories, you might call them, of people who have reached psychic breakthroughs.

11:29

And there’s a similarity that runs through them. But they aren’t all the same; they fall into certain categories. Now the way you can tell the reception or the attainment of an absolute experience is the fact that there are no relative connotations. There’s no way to describe it in a relative manner. Whereas those that are described in a relative manner are not an absolute experience. So you go back and take these experiences in which they [either] reached a visitation, you know, of a person, or a personality.

12:07

I don’t know how many of you are acquainted with Gurdjieff, but he laid down a number system for man’s gradations, one, two, three and four, going up to seven; but the first four categories were the instinctive man, the emotional man, the intellectual man and the philosophic man. And I find that this is a good categorization of people. Because we find in their pyramidal structure that the majority of people making up the base of the pyramid are instinctive people.

12:40

And they’ll tell you quite frankly that they’re living for their instinctive purposes, they’re living to eat, drink and b merry; and they’re living for physical things like power, a better house, a better car, a better sexual mate and that sort of thing.

These are instinctive people. And when they evolve, if they transcend that, they go through what people like Huxley [Bucke?] would call an exaltation.

13:10

And their exaltation has the name of salvationism. And they lose that by dropping an ego; the ego, in their, their physical ego, of the need for pampering the body; they see that it’s no longer necessary. So they fasten themselves to something else – they have to, to break loose from themselves, and that something else maybe Jesus or the guru. And this is a bona fide way of breaking away from yourself – to fasten yourself and make something else more important. Sometimes it may be love in a marriage, where you remove a person from their, and they’ll find salvation in that.

13:48

But regardless, there is a feeling of a breakthrough, and a contact with where do they [?] projected [for] themselves.. [whatever they projected]

Then again, if they live long enough they find that they were hung up. Because now they’re in the emotional department, regardless of who they love, they’re attached to whatever they love And they may linger in this for a long time. It may be the religion they were born in. And after awhile they start to analyze this thing, and their intuition prods them and they get to thinking, “Well, maybe this isn’t the last thing on earth,” and they’ll start to get into something perhaps more mathematical. Or maybe they will get into magic, thaumaturgy, numerology, astrology or something – they’ll try to make it a tangible search, and belabor themselves [with that] – the cabala is another one, incidentally It’s symbolic, the evaluation of symbols.

14:51

And if they pursue this long enough they’ll be a breakthrough. For instance, I heard a yogi say one time that wisdom was the result of the juggling of any set of symbols. That is you could persistently juggle any set of symbols you’ll find wisdom. That’s like in mathematics; I’ve had this experience with algebra, when I first went to school, [?] and I was taking advanced algebra, and I couldn’t see the sense of the whole thing; it just seemed useless to concern myself with why “a + b = c” when I could dump the – I figured well if we’ve got a problem, why can’t we just say “1 + 2 = 3” instead, and the superimpositions of values for those things?

15:32

After belaboring myself with this – because I had to, to get through school – all of a sudden the thing popped like a light bulb one day, and the whole thing became manifest to me,

dw2-1975-1119 begins here

the whole thing became easy. From then on, algebra was very easy. Because if you apply yourself long enough, you’ll get a one-ness with whatever subject, if the symbols form an orderly pattern.

15:58

So this is what happens, basically. The evolvement from the emotional level puts us into an exaltation. But after awhile you find out that this is a vanity. Than basically – and here is the basic clue, between this form of spiritual endeavor and most [other?] forms of spiritual endeavor. Is most forms – I understand, a spiritual endeavor, and I’m talking about the religion of my childhood as well – are increments, [incremental?] accumulation of holiness, accumulation of merits. So many hours off in purgatory, or so many kilowatts added to your halo.

16:49

And everything is closer, becoming more saintly, becoming closer to the illumination of your chakras and yogic things, getting them spinning, according to Anthroposophy or Rosicrucian concepts of the chakras. The big thing is you’re supposed to get the chakras spinning, and that will attract the master in astral form and you’ll be on your way. These are objective things to go after.

17:17 dwbc2-01:37

The real pursuit of reality or absolute, an absolute state has nothing to do with that which is relative. And this dawns on you one day. You’re not going to ever find out. In the Christian theology, Thomas Aquinas says – I heard this 100 times, I think he’s the source – the way they dissuaded the peasants from looking too deeply was to remind them that the finite mind will never perceive the infinite.

This depressed me when I heard it

But it also dawned on me that the finite mind might become less finite. There might be a system by which the finite mind can become capable of perceiving the infinite. How? Not in its present form; it would have to change

your raja yoga systems, your ultimate Zen systems are basically changes of the state of being. You do not learn the truth, you become the truth.

We go back and you look at the Bible: Christ didn’t say, “I know everything.” He said, “I am the way, the truth and the life.” That is, “I am the truth,” not, “I learned the truth.”

Start auto-transcription

This begins with min 3:29 of file dw2-1975-1119-Boston-College-misnamed.mp3 To avoid duplication, the file was cropped to here before sending to transcription service. Besides this, the following tapes were used: dw3-1975-1119-Boston-College-misnamed.mp3, dw4-1975-1119-Boston-College-misnamed.mp3. See files and notes at 1975-1119-Boston-College-date-conflict

dw2-03:13

"I am the truth." In other words, I learned the truth. And this is one of the earmarks of the maximum system is finding the method by which you will become the truth. Now, when we get to talking about the way and the truth and the life, which is a Christian formula, we go over again to Asia and we find the formula over there, the threefold law, the Buddha, the Dharma, and the Sangu, which are almost synonymous. We've crossed over and adopted something that has a little more magical sound to it, but the Buddha means the truth or the maximum self. And the sangate is the brotherhood, which is the equivalent of the life and the dharma is the duty path, which is the way that you have to go. So they're pretty much anonymous and I maintain that the truth is the same in all languages or in all geographical positions.

dw2-04:11

It may be worded a little differently. You might have a different word for it, but in this business of enlightenment, the maximum experience,

Paul Wood

I have known a couple of people that I think had a profound enlightenment through the application Zen. But the most profound experience that I've witnessed of enlightenment in my lifetime was a man who reached it through the constant application of the Lord's Prayer. And the last thing most of us we want to do is fool with the Lord's Prayer because that's what all of our hypocritical ancestors and ministers advocate. So we'll not do anything that they advocate, but regardless, this fellow is, he was from San Antonio. I met him in San Antonio, Texas and later in Akron, he was a pilot, fought in the Second World War and bombed Japan. And I think he liked, enjoyed being a pilot until he had to drop bombs. And he went back to his Sunday school class in which somebody said to him that the Bible says God observes the fall of the sparrow. Everything happened. God observes the operation and he got to thinking, well, this is the personality, it's watching a thing. What's he doing up there? What he allowing it to happen for? He became so shaken, he's killing a lot of people that he talked out loud, his concern about God's inability to stop the war. And the superior office took him out of the combat zone, sent him back home, retired him.

dw2-05:49

He had a wife and children and he went around talking to himself for a few months and his wife put him on retirement. He said, you're either going to have to go back to work or get out. So he left. When she left. The children kind of disowned him. He just couldn't live without answering this question. It's disturbing. His whole life structure was based upon his Christian upbringing and it didn't answer itself. It didn't seem to be consistent. So he had to eat. So he took a job as a salesman in a car dealership and he said that he'd like to commit suicide. He didn't have the curry thought several times he killed himself, but he went to the Bible. Something in the Bible said, I'm not too much. I'm not an authority on it. Bible was somewhere that said if you would have an answer, prayed thusly in what Father was the Lord's prayer.

dw2-06:40

He said, well, that's all I got to go by. That's what I was raised with. That's what I told the truth is. So we're going to go in there and we're going to work this Lord's prayer. Well, he would do it all day. I mean he was in trauma the biggest part of the time. And he would just keep listening his head and he would repeat it out loud. He would look at it, study it, analyze structures of the Lord's prayer, why this thing was there, and try even building an analytical philosophy out of the Lord's prayer. And he kept on repeating this to himself and nothing happened good. His trauma got deeper. He got more into more trouble and he said he was in a sales room and he put his head down on the death and prayed for God to kill him, enough courage to kill himself.

dw2-07:21

And he said he woke up, he's in the hospital. But what followed was about seven days of which he was beyond this relative world and naturally it's not good testimony because he could have been amended. So I don't know whether too many people would listen to his story, but I heard him and describe this in Akron and I knew that he was telling the truth he can care less. He was sitting in a lot of the so-called scientists from Firestone were at this house and he was telling him the experience and some other things that had happened to him and a few of 'em poked fun at him. One thing he had acquired in the meantime since he'd had his experience was a very beautiful wife, a young woman. And incidentally, he looked like he would've made a double for Guggenheim, the sidekick of Jackie Gleason when he had that barroom skit on television, he was a double for that.

dw2-08:19

It looked like he'd been boiled in booth. He probably had, he may have done a share of drinking, I dunno. But this man was, I'd say maybe 40, 45 years. And he was married to this young girl about say 23, 25 years of age. They sort of laughed at him. He'd tell some of the things that happened. I know the fellow that introduced me to him, he tried to stop him. He said, Paul, he said, don't tell. He was tell him about some things that seemed to be miraculous that happened to him just on the ordinary claim. He fed a bunch of people out of a pot, but it wouldn't go down. It didn't matter whether they believed it or not. It didn't matter whether a pot went down or not. It was just the idea that he didn't care. He considered it happened to him. So he was telling it.

dw2-09:04

And my friend said to him, why don't you skip that? He said, I don't believe these people believe you. And he just smiled. And I told Bob, I said, I know he don't care. That part doesn't matter. He feels constrained to tell the story and if somebody picks it up, that's all right. But that's all he could do is tell what happened to him. He had no method of teaching. This becomes a difficulty because you have a person's gone through a tremendous lot and found something and all they can do is say, go back and read the Lord's Prayer or Live the Lord's Prayer or something of this sort. And strangely enough, not too many people will try it. I believe myself. But if a person dedicated themselves to that, if they're, of course I say don't postulate it, I think it's wrong to postulate you're going to find God because you're going to find the truth. Because when you say that you're going to find it, you're postulating it ahead of time. What you're going to look for is that what you don't have and don't know, that's all the further you can postulate because as soon as you name it, you're you're going to start looking for book that have a God signs in them or a true signs. The only thing you can do is write, I call retreat from error. You cannot approach, you cannot approach an unknown objective.

dw2-10:22

You have to have as soon as, as you say, you're going to say Moscow, well you can pick up a roadmap and of course as soon as you say you're going to heaven, you'll find hundreds of roadmaps. And what happens is you find out that there's a difference between them and the roadmap for Moscow. The majority of them are spurious. They really can't take you there or they're incomplete. Now some of may be true, the people have reached it, but they're incomplete. And his direction by the use of the Lord's Prayer I think was valid. But it was, there should have been some way of coaching as the person went along saying, this is what you encounter as you're doing this or maybe there are other systems. I think there are many systems by which you can reach this. If you have the conviction and you have the determination, you don't have to go by any system, just have the determination to find out who you are. And I think it may take you through a lot of libraries and may take you past a lot of gurus, which you may have to discount, I don't know. But part of it is putting up a fight.

Samadhi

dw2-11:29

Now, the best explanation that I have ever had, I used to just avoid trying to define enlightenment. So I'm going to refer you to Raman Maharshi. I dunno how many of you're acquainted with it. The book is available in almost all the Eary posters. They tell me they have one in town and yes, bookstore, I'm sure they'd have it. He deals with this. The last two categories I spoke of, the Eureka experience and the one beyond the eureka experience is the cosmic consciousness experience, which Roman Maharshi, who never heard of zen incidentally, calls Kila Samad. Cavalla never called it somebody to be exact short, bad enough to have to remember, but the maximum experience or the absolute experience because Sahaja call now, he compares he to sleep the mental experience of sleep. In sleep, the mind is still alive in Kila Samati, the mind is still alive That, I mean, when Bucky talked about seeing the city of Montreal lit up like rose colored lights and feeling of peace and beauty permeating his mind, his mind was very much alive or wouldn't seen the relative experience, but in the mind is dead.

dw2-12:54

Now again, it's rather puzzling just to realize that the maximum experience calls for the mind to be dead and say how you have an experience if your mind is dead. But that tend to explain in sleep, in deep sleep the mind has sunk in oblivion, which it's either deep sleep or death, death, the mind itself is dead. It dies in death and kila somebody, it is sunk in light the phenomena that you hear of after death experiences. Moody put out a book in people, Ross put one out on after death, life after life, et cetera. You'll find categories of descriptions of after death experiences that corresponded this where people saw the light, other people saw other things in the Reader's Digest. October, 1970 2, 19 60, is that right? 74 74. There's an article says, I died at 10 22, something of this sort. The man had a heart attack in the street.

dw2-13:50

He entered into what we consider so Haji, Samati, he had no spiritual background. I don't know if he had any private faith, but the description he gives joining with the ultimate, whereas in somebody is sun in light, the experience of entering up realm of light, intense light, which is also what St. Paul described when he got knocked off the horse, he blinded by it. Surprise. So these are phenomena that we can't just write off as a mental hallucination, of course would be. If you go to the psychiatrist, he'll tell you what you know, there's an article says, I died at 10 22, something of this sort. A man had a heart attack in the street. He entered into what we consider. So he had no spiritual background. I don't know if he had private faith, but the description he gives is joining with the ultimate, whereas in somebody is sun in light, the experience of entering up realm of light, intense light, which is also what St.

dw2-14:53

Paul described. When he got knocked off the horse, he was blinded by it. So these are phenomena that we can't just write off as a mental hallucination, which of course would be if you go to the psychiatrist, you'll tell you take this pill and get back and try to get back to work. Now when the corresponding condition in Saji is that the mind, the self is resolved into itself, the person is resolved into themselves, that's their capital S self. Whereas they found their self, so to speak, which is the absolute. Now he draws a little analogy that the cosmic consciousness experience or to somebody is like a bucket tied to a rope and left lying in the bottom of a well. And when you want to pull it up, you can pull it back out and go back to work.

dw2-15:50

But the parallel with Ji or what we call enlightenment is it's like a river discharge in the ocean and there is no return. The identity of the river is lost and once lost, it cannot return. So this might be hard to take if you realize that there's not going to be any more you, but it does mean also that you're the ocean. Now it's nine o'clock. I got one other thing here that if we have time to talk about it perhaps should I consider that the mind, this is my concept of the total experiences of a man's mind. In other words, I look upon the mind, and again, this is not, it's only you can take it for what it's worth. This is the result of my experience that I realize that the mind was false. The mind is not the experiences that which experiences is awareness. We are aware of our own mind. The mind is that which takes on visions. So that the thought is basically a vision. It is not us. A lot of people think thoughts are ourselves, but what I'd like to do is stop and I don't know what time do we have to get out here? 9 30, 10 o'clock, 10 30.

Q & A

dw2-17:18

I would like to stop and communicate with you more personally and have you ask questions. And maybe I can get something if you're interested in knowing it, I might talk there for three days and we wouldn't touch on it.

Speaker 2 dw2-17:37

You mentioned that the treat from arrow is different, which you generally find plenty of roadmaps. I'm not really clear on what the difference is between an escape route roadmap and a roadmap to the golden city.

Speaker 1 dw2-18:00

Well, I don't consider it necessarily an escape route because there's no guarantee. I don't say it's guaranteed to escape. Of course, that's what we talk about. EF talked about the sly man escaping from the escaping from error, right? Right. Well yes, if you want to call it that. The thing is that it is a system and that's all we have to go by. Now, it may not be at first glance be infallible or seem to be infallible, but it's the only method we have. And all of human activity along the theological line is basically aiming at a postulation that someone else gave us like a word heaven. I don't know what heaven is, it's a subjective word, but we try to, incidentally, a lot of your yogi systems, you get books where a fellow says, visualize a blue light, visualize a chakra, visualize. This is an evil in my estimation.

dw2-18:51

Let's find out what it is. Let's not visualize or imagine we see something and create. We know that psychologically this is a good way to create stuff and it's not necessarily dependable once we create it. But to me, the only valid way is to, and it has no real airtight step-by-step system except that we accept tentatively things that are more sensible than others and continue to sort that which we accepted for the garbage in that category for something still more sensible. In other words, we have to explore and as we look around, we see certain things that are manifestly observed. For instance, when I was young, I looked the cults over the groups of religions and I said, they're all calling each other Lars. So by their own voice, they're all Lars, but one which ones telling the truth. So I had to find some yard stick.

dw2-19:42

You can't spend 10 years or 20 years. I know people spent 40 years in the rose of Cru waiting for something magical to happen at the end of 40 years. Well, I don't want to get into the answers, but it's disheartening to think that a person put 40 years in waiting for somebody to show up. But you find out that you have to discard certain things by virtue of what they manifest. For instance, an excessive amount of money. How can a person trade an absolute value for a thousand dollars or 10,000 bucks? And when this thing comes up of money,

dw2-20:13

Some cult leader or somebody saying, Hey, you come up here and we're going to put you through the ropes for a thousand bucks. Well, unless he needs that, unless you're actually eating up a thousand dollars worth of food and a light bill and room rent or something like that, then I would say discard it. And that's the way I led my life. I paid no one anything except my way. Okay. Another thing that I found was that the outfits that got too much involved in ritual robes, rank, title, respect for somebody as a deacon or a hierarchical thing, I discarded that. Then I found that others operated under a blanket of secrecy. And the big secret was don't tell the people who haven't paid in.

dw2-21:00

So I laid these down and I went about my business of avoiding things that, and the other one was of course, I've written a book on this as a guide. The book is a guide for young people. I don't think it's any good to get this when you're 90 years of age because your energy spent, but if a person has the vior to search, there are certain things you got to avoid. And you'll find out that whole systems are built on postulations. Whole systems are built on gimmicks cover words like the utilitarian approach. What will it do for me? I hear this repeatedly, Mr. Rose, what do you do when you're not doing zen? Do you heal people? Why not? What good is it to heal people so they can go out and get into a deach and get sick? Or is it better that they stay sick long enough to shakes up their head?

dw2-21:43

So the idea of healing a bunch of pigs, making themselves sick in a hog drop to me isn't appealing and too many promises, too many little tidbit to go along with it. And then you find some that promise everything. Chant miny moe and you'll have everything. Just name it. Just keep on chatting and you'll get it. So a few people by coincidence get the opera ticket or the fur coat or whatever they want. And I think it works and maybe it will work up until the time that you're really bait. So I think if the only thing you could do is some of these are manifestly observed, they're not observed everybody because people do, they do bite on them. But this depends upon what you want for yourself, what your computer's able to bring for you. And if your computer says, Hey, I want to be able to chant my way into certain things, okay, let that person alone. It's not fair to shake them up. And I'm not preaching any, I'm talking for people who want to move. Now if I offend somebody, if somebody thinks that they're going to get somewhere by Channing, they sure don't belong. In sense, yes. Against

Speaker 3 dw2-22:59

Saying it's a natural mistake to try and define search for when self-admittedly, you dunno what it's Speaker 1 dw2-23:07

Right, right, right. That's the whole thing. This is the mistake that's made by all of the major religions on the face of the earth. They'll tell you flatly. I can remember when I started studying theology that I found that the Catholic theology was based on five axioms. I can't even remember what they are, but I remember one of 'em was that there was a God and Mary was the mother of God. And of course that really thrown me into a spin there, which came first, the chicken or the egg. See the son or the mother. But I said to the guy that was teaching me, I said, Hey, where's the proof of this? They said, this is a science. Theology is a science we'll prove. They proved incidentally, the existence of God in a civil theological by virtue of the fact that the earth was moving, the constellations were moving and anything that moves has to have a mover, ergo whatever's moving it God. See now Einstein comes along and says, maybe things aren't moving.

dw2-24:04

We have a space time continuum and where possibly things are just an experience. We experience things by virtue of our agreement. Our sense is being limited. Possibly nothing moves except our experiential processes. And you can examine it and it sounds very valid, just as valid as the fact that they are moving. The time is passing, which means of course that there persist such thing as time independent of space in which you aren't born living and dying. It's already happened. It's an experiential process of a, let's say, a solid dimensional experience. Possibly the eye of consciousness traversing like the pages of a book. Yes. Does my absolute self come from the same trajectory as your absolute self? It is the same. Then you're saying all that ultimately is consciousness. No, no, no, no. I said all that exists ultimately is as far as we're concerned is our awareness.

Speaker 4 dw2-25:05

Awareness of what?

Speaker 1 dw2-25:07

Well, of our awareness of ourself. Our awareness of our awareness. I consider this the maximum trip. You can be aware of everything. You can be aware of the, in other words, what we are, I consider us pretty much in a theater. Plato calls it dec cave for shadows, but I consider it very much like a theater in which we agreed to enter a certain drama of life and like who was it? One of the plays of Shakespeare, merchant of Venice or somebody. He said, the world's a stage run. Every man must play his part and must play the fool. And I think this is true. We enter this stage by agreement and play out certain roles, but we're basically view this not doing it. We do nothing. I don't think we do hardly anything. I've always said it's possible that we have leeway to do certain things, but as far as choosing your parents or choosing the glands that dominate your thoughts, it's pretty hard to choose that pretty much cast in. Yes.

Speaker 3 dw2-26:22

I know you saying about found you couldn't go back until scene. Did you find if you wanted to go back to scene?

Speaker 1 dw2-26:32

Not particularly. Not particularly. I think it's pretty much synonymous that if I wanted to, I could have. In other words, it's a loss of an appetite for things. In other words, it's just like a child has when they're small, they have baby dolls and they outgrow them. And I think life is pretty much a series of laying aside certain toys. And the difference in people, I think is the rapidity with which we're able to lay side to that don't have real significance for us. And momentarily the baby doll is very significant, but later on we say, how could we have ever played with a baby doll? Yes.

Speaker 2 dw2-27:16

How much were you personally influenced by?

Speaker 1 dw2-27:20

Well, I was rather happy to read George's writing because I consider him the first European psychologist, true psychologist I think he found. I talk about then being a psychologist. I think that the only true psychologist is a man who steps inside of another man and thinks with his thoughts, you're able to do that. You're a psychologist before that you're a peddler of words and books. But EF had this idea, he had a pretty good idea of what motivated people and he realized, he talked about mechanical men. I dunno if you're acquaint of ggi, but this was unheard of before. The old religion that Europe was submerged in for centuries was one of responsibility. It held you responsible. They burnt people to state for making mistakes. And IFF realized that people were automatical and he was the first one to come out with it and actually lay down a system of freedom from that robot condition.

dw2-28:20

Say, here's a way to be free of this. Now this is real psychology when a person can show you freedom, not just a deeper form of insanity. I believe for instance, that it's my belief not arguable that because I don't want to try to prove it, that I believe that there are the psychiatric and psychological professions are the ones that are making the nuthouse. I believe that there, in fact, the rate of suicide is greater in that profession than any other profession. So I think that there are various encounters with these people are conducive to more nuts in the nuthouse. Pardon my idiot. Yes.

Speaker 2 dw2-29:01

I noticed you made a depiction of consciousness and awareness,

Speaker 1 dw2-29:11

For instance. I believe that thought is a vision. It's something that we see. We see it with our mind, but we are aware of this as a process not being us. So the thought is not us and awareness, consequences, the awareness of visionary, all of these things are visions that we watch, the awareness watches it, and this is what I call the anterior observer.

Speaker 4 dw2-29:43

Yes.

Speaker 3 dw2-29:46

In your description, I enlighten well manifestations of the

Speaker 1 dw2-30:01

Middle process to shut the mind

dw2-30:04

Down. That's pretty much what you should never try to shut your mind down. See, this is another thing. This is a lot of, for instance, I read literature monks down hundreds of years ago in China it would be going around trying to acquire no mine. Now there's one of the things that I find. We have a little group in which people are trying to find some things, and incidentally there's different levels. Some people committed the group basically to find a psychological balance. Others come in to find a maximum experience. But people come in too sometimes to say, they listen, they listen, they think this is somewhere there's a clue, and if we get that clue and push that button, then we'll reach enlightenment rather quickly and we can get back to playing pool. And they listen for this thing of no mind. And we see this in the writings of them a hundred years ago, the kids going, young people going around saying, I'm working on acquiring no minders.

dw2-30:58

I'm trying to think of nothing. This is nonsense. You'll think of nothing soon enough by thinking of yourself because this is an automatic thing that happens when all the ego egos go and you can't do it synthetically. The no mind condition comes after all of the egos go. And you can't even banish those. As I said, if you do, you'll wind up like Gary Gilmore. This is what happens when you say, Hey, I'm tired of myself so I'm going to get rid of it. Well, maybe he received enlightenment, maybe he didn't because he sure lost all these egos. He knew they were all going. Now what happens is, for instance, we have, well the evils of it are a whole generation of people who hang onto a Watts doctrine and just let themselves go. They just indulge in anything no matter what effect it has on their gray matter or on their bodies.

dw2-31:48

And of course their bodies affect the gray matter and say, well, I don't have any pride, so I'm spiritual Now you have to have pride. This is an ego. This is the paradox. Permeating all subjective philosophy or this change of being philosophy are paradoxes because as soon as you define something as black, this is wrong. It may also be white and you find this all the way down the line so that we say pride is the nego, but hang onto that pride because you can neglect to wash, you can neglect to keep yourself clean and you can get ringworm and that'll keep you from thinking or you can get into something where spirochetes will be scrambling your brains and there's no enlightenment when your brains are chewed up with spirochetes. So you have to hang onto that pride. And another thing is the pride of spiritual physical survival will say, yes, I'll pledge myself to this path, but I'm not going to risk my life. If I go into a trance or something, I'm not allowed to come back. This again is true. You don't have to do things that will risk your life. You don't have to go on diets that'll kill you. For me, it doesn't matter whether you eat meat, fish or whatever. It's what your head's doing.

dw2-33:09

But at the same time, the time will come if you're persistent in this, in which you will give up the egg of life. This is part of the experience. Then on top of this, as you're about to die and you have to go through the death experience, not know illuminating a bunch of flashing lights like a LSD trip. When you approach death, the concept or the hope of the immortality, of the existence of a soul, which nothing see was not proven anything, the individual approach, that's when the ego ego of spiritual importance faces. You say, I'm not important enough to live forever possible when I die. This is it. You have to face it honestly. You can't postulate, immortality and cl to and when that lets go, that's when you enter the truth and that's when you live for the first time. This first year back here,

Speaker 2 dw2-34:03

Be very different from say a dedicated professional doesn't believe in God. Particle on that.

Speaker 1 dw2-34:15

Well, I'm not saying I would never call the shots on how every man arrived. Slightly different,

Speaker 2 dw2-34:24

But he's not really doing anything different from what you just described. Not speaking.

Speaker 1 dw2-34:32

Well, I don't say he will because I've done a lot of research physicists that got nowhere. Well, I've got a really vague, but I won't rule out for instance, just like the fall of the Lord's Prayer, I would've thought until I met that man, I thought, well, nobody's going to get any place better mulling over the Lord's prayer. But what happened was those things happened. We don't know anything about it. Was the interior trauma chewed away at his a goods and so they started to come down like dominoes and when they come down, like they say, it happens quick. It does happen quick, but the effects last for hours or days. In other words, when they fall, they may fall within 15 minutes time. They may drop in rapid succession, but the effects of the experience, the new vision of the world, the vision is the new observation of the world. Picture may last for hours or days. Yes, reaching light, that's all dead. That's all dead.

Speaker 4 dw2-35:32

They're not

Speaker 1 dw2-35:32

More dreams.

dw2-35:34

Right. Well, I won't say when you come back, when, like I say, hills once more become hills and the valleys once more become valley. If you live, you've got to live in a physical body and you've got to do whatever that body did before to survive. You've got to eat and so on. The functions have to return so constantly you'll think again and you'll dream again. But these are all things that our awareness, these are functions that our awareness observes and these cease, this stuff disappears at the moment of enlightenment. Right. The picture comes back.

Speaker 3 dw2-36:11

The fact that he said he understood the whole process of dreaming. He found out where it came from and he just doesn't dream.

Speaker 1 dw2-36:22

Well. Yes, I guess it is. I don't know. I dream. I dream. I think it's more real than the other part. When you speak up

Speaker 3 dw2-36:36

Enlightly and moving away from error, you correct me if I'm wrong, don't you to a lot of say I alive even say I'm, but is that correct?

Speaker 1 dw2-36:57

Well, I wouldn't say that to you for sure. See, enlightenment is not a process. Enlightenment is the end result.

Speaker 3 dw2-37:11

I have a friend who is a Catholic brother dead and he went over there and I think he was looking for something he didn't find. The one thing, I find a great amount of pleasure in walking around and doing this and seeing the world. I don't know. Perhaps it's not the ultimate experience, but I don't see that it's necessary to make the mind dead. I enjoy, I find pleasure. I can say hello to people, say, hi, how are you?

Speaker 1 dw2-37:54

Enjoy it. Is there a conflict? Huh? Is there a conflict? Well, unless you find one. If you find one, well then react to the conflict. Yes. Can

Speaker 5 dw2-38:08

You talk of self love I the that the superior people get self-satisfaction, inferior people, the people to the people and the recognition that people as a vicious circle of self-satisfaction and you see eliminating self-love as a key to timelessness and seeing that the past coexist and that nothing is a separate entity that everything,

Speaker 1 dw2-38:58

Well, I hope you're not in that belief until you determine for yourself. I mean, this is again one of the symptoms of the final result. In other words, if you would imply, for instance, that we should act as though we're all equal, then I disagree with you because you don't know whether we're all equal or not. Until you find that we're all equal, so first find that we're equal, then go back. Then you may have the compassion you talk about, but it is just like pretending to have no mind, to pretend to be God and have the perfect love for every human being or creature.

Speaker 4 dw2-39:41

Yes.

Speaker 6 dw2-39:42

You say that we shouldn't try to stop the mind or try to control certain influences that we really don't have any control. Things have to lead. There seems to be a paradox there.

Speaker 1 dw2-39:57

Well, yes. The thing is that basically the whole thing goes on without you having a formula. If there is a formula, I would say it lies in an intense desire and intense. This can be dangerous too. We know that psychologically a person can create that which they intensely desire, that you could desire to say, reach a certain spiritual state of mind and all of a sudden pop here comes, you see visions or something of that sort, but the strange thing is that a part of meditation keeps you aware of this all the time that you may be doing this, so you keep challenging whatever experiences you seem to have, but your final result has to come, and I'll tell you one thing about it. I believe that if you could predict the science, the basics of everything to be scientific, it depends upon prediction. In other words, if you say, I know what water is composed of, I'll take it apart and produce hydrogen oxygen or I'll synthesize the two and get water. Then this is the prediction process, which is scientific, the validity of phenomena, subjective phenomena such as spiritual experiences. If they are predictable, then they are not worth anything.

dw2-41:18

In other words, they're created because the mind will create that which it predicts. I don't know if you follow me or not, but if you say, I want to be enlightened and then I'll follow such and such a process and I'll arrive at exactly such a formula, then your mind is capable of creating that, the validity. Most experiences, and when you read about them, we find that the fellow was unaware and unprepared. He came to him as a surprise, like Bucky, when he stepped out of his, he didn't say, I'm going out on my back porch and having experience. He went out and got a surprise. He said he thought the town was on fire at first. He didn't believe his own senses, so that this, to see that you're not creating something and that's the only way you can be sure that you're not creating something is if it's spontaneous. Yes.

Speaker 3 dw2-42:10

It's been a minute, so I forgot exact question. Something said, doesn't it? The idea of the mind trying to control its own self

Speaker 1 dw2-42:22

Little circle there. You can't control yourself. I don't. Right. See, I don't think it's that. You're lucky to observe Now, we hope this is like a robot coming for the little switch in the back where you might reach back and start maybe stop the clock or do one little thing and say, this is me doing it. We never have any proof of that. It's mostly observing. Observing ourself rather than trying to change it. Yes. Would be ahead of time projector. Right, right. That's why I say taking your attention and realizing that this projection on the screen is not you, that Clark Gable's not up there, that this is something coming from someplace else and then you look back at the room from which the light comes and go back through the light, so to speak. When you say that your spiritual search was a result of your own free will, that search, I don't say that. Never said it. I don't know. Didn't I'm asking

Speaker 2 dw2-43:31

Or would you say that you're just sort a pawn

Speaker 3 dw2-43:34

In a play of evolution?

Speaker 1 dw2-43:37

Rose: I wouldn't say that either. In other words, I have often wondered whether I was hatched from a ripe or rot leg. [repeats next side]

File dw3

Speaker 1 dw3-00:01

Rose: Whether I was hatched from a ripe or rotten egg. I don't know just how I got here and why I'm here, and I don't presume to know we've got two or 3 billion people. And the idea of knowing everything does not involve knowing either how many hairs are on your head or how many people are on the earth. Although you hear the scripture say that the hair of your head is counted, it's counted, but not in my little private computer.

Speaker 2 dw3-00:32

You just rather observing your own curiosity.

Speaker 1 dw3-00:36

Yes. I think that it's important to feel that you're free and it's important. You have to act as though you have a free will if you don't act as though people who act as though things are destined then. Well, I was a year ago this time, I was over in Cairo and I ascribed a lot of the non motion that existed among the Arab peoples in Egypt. I don't make it someplace else too. The car was that they were fatal, that they believed that unless God moved them that they wouldn't move. If God wanted to feed them, they'd be fed and a few of 'em didn't believe it. They'd been exposed to our money and they got believe they could do things. But the majority of them, the them seem to be just, they didn't struggle, but whichever it is, I don't know works.

Speaker 3 dw3-01:27

If I understand you rightly saying the essentials for the path that you're describing are really an intense desire to have this kind of experience and awareness that you don't know when you start out and the development of awareness open. Is there any place for formal meditation, breast counting, some routinized observation or,

Speaker 1 dw3-01:47

Well, I don't. This is the thing that makes every, what we're doing very indefinite is because prescribe, and what I do is I talk to people individually. For instance, I had two school eaters, a man and wife come down to my place and they went into Macrobiotics. They were eating grains, and the woman was tremendously anemic. And I said to her, if I were, you'd go out and get a hamburger. Her husband was rather angry. The fact that she would break over. He wanted to both go to the macro body life and both go to heaven together. See, and this doesn't happen. You can't always take the wife with you heaven, but she had spells, but she'd get it. Very painful headaches. I went over and took her pulse one day and I thought she'd die on the sofa. That's when I told her, get some liver or something, or go to a doctor, but don't follow this macro body diet up if it's going to harm you.

dw3-02:51

Well, she went down and got some liver and stuff and ate it, and it seemed it wasn't only her anemia that was bothering. She also needed an operation. Well, had she not gotten her blood built up to a point, she wouldn't have survived the operation because of her being too weak and an evening. So it worked out for the best in that case. Well, now of course they're both, both of them, they don't pay too much attention what they now, to another person, I'd say where they've got a lot of granular trouble that possibly a little starvation might help them, might quiet them down. But I think that the most important thing is to develop your intuition as quick as possible. Now with the intuition, you'll prescribe your own. You'll be attracted to vegetarianism. If it's going to do you good and you'll be attracted to the hamburger.

dw3-03:38

If it's going to do you good or you standing on your head may help you and another person might break his neck, you weigh 300 pounds. So I don't like to say infallibly. This is a system and because of this, everybody wants that. Everybody says, Hey, give me that formula. How many hours a day should I meditate? Some people meditate sitting in a corner. I did it walking because I was trying to be hypothyroid, and when I sat in the corner, I went to sleep. I could have cared less about the secrets of the universe until I woke up.

Speaker 4 dw3-04:10

When you visited Egypt, did you go inside the pyramid over there? Yeah. Did you feel any different inside the pyramid than you did outside?

Speaker 1 dw3-04:17

No, no. I was conscious of, the only thing I was conscious of over there was that there I had a strong feeling I'd been there before and I felt that it was like some hell I'd gone through. I wanted out that after there for a while, I got the liking of people. I enjoyed talking to them, but I didn't have any attraction at all for those tombs. I had to go with them. I had a paid tour, so I went through them and took the pictures and that sort of thing, but I couldn't, the only thing I believe is that there was an intelligence there. There was really a, what do you call technology that was lost. For instance, their ability to cut stone. I don't buy what the system, the guides tell you they cut stone with.

Speaker 4 dw3-05:08

They didn't figure out how they did all that work inside there marks all inside. They had lights and we dunno how they had it. They had

Speaker 1 dw3-05:22

It without, yeah. Oh, I don't doubt what, there's a technology that really amazing. Well, just a mere fact. If you walk along the outside and you can't slide a piece of paper, I didn't see any cement if it was very thin. But you can't slide a piece of paper in between the joints of those rocks and they're cut perfectly. And they didn't have any big powers, saws, I don't think at that time. But yet they were able to grind those things down and put them in place so that they would be vertical. Perfectly true. And of course the stones on the inside, especially that hallway going up into the king's chamber, of course they claim that this was all built, that the tomb was another idea that that was basically never used for a tomb because there was no body in it. They broke into it. Nobody had ever been in there and there was no body found in it. It meant that there was never intended to be a tomb and unless they closed it up after maybe the king drowned or something couldn't get anybody. They

Speaker 4 dw3-06:23

Claim also that memorials.

Speaker 1 dw3-06:35

Well, there's a lot of things about it that shows it was presumably a knowledge of astronomy. The one hole that they had for light pointed to North Star, I believe supposedly there was another hole that they had for light that they closed up in line with that grand gallery that was going up. But I think the big secret, the big technology is lost is how they cut their stone. And I think there was also, I believe that there was a theology, there was a theology there that it is described in the hieroglyphics, a bit overlooked. I know some students I was going through, I think it was at Luxor, I was going through these ruins and I came across a carving. I showed a sun disc with a whole bunch of rays coming down from it. And they caught my eye because this is my concept of the individual relationship to God.

dw3-07:36

The individual was a ray of which the awareness of which goes back into the absolute center. See, and at first it comes out like a ray. See? And at each one of these was carved a little tiny hand, and of each one of these raids and this carved in the side of one of these monuments buildings and very close there, these students caught up with me and I don't know why they decided to corner me, but they wanted know who I was and where I came from. I from America, United States, very glad Americans always got money. So they're very glad to see an American and foolish enough to give it away. So he said, what do you do for a living? And I said, well, I'm retired and I go around and give lectures. That's about all I get done. And he said, what do you lecture on?

dw3-08:26

And I said, theology and philosophy. I didn't want to go into details. It was just theology and philosophy. So they stood there and looked at me a while and one said in very broken English, he said, what is God? And I reached out and I tapped him on the chest because I didn't want to try to explain too much. I said, God is there. And they looked at me or they're puzzled. And one said, I know what you mean. He said, I know what you mean, but I don't think he does. And I said, well, take him more there where that drawing is. You'll see

Speaker 5 dw3-08:55

It there.

Speaker 1 dw3-08:57

These people way back there must have had some concept of the ultimate relation of man to his origin. So I think by some accident or destiny, that superior race of people left the earth were run out. Some say they were downstream or upstream, I mean up into Nubian countries, right? They claimed they floated them down. I think that's Was you up for the, were you up there? I

Speaker 4 dw3-09:43

Went all the way up to assembly.

Speaker 1 dw3-09:45

We were supposed to get up there, but somebody preempted our plane royalties in Europe. They took the whole plane because of security and put us off at as one. But the unfinished OBLs is near as one. Did you see that? This is a thing that convinced me that they basically didn't cut. They tell you they cut the copper hammers the only metal. They had this copper that they had a method of hardening copper. But this was polished like a tombstone finished surface and it still was adhering. It had never been cut loose from the granite quarry. They'd finished three sides of it, never cut it loose yet. So I realized that they had done that much work. They weren't gambling on getting that thing out. They knew they'd get it out, but whether the earth moved and cracked it or what happened, it never was moved. It never was taken out. But my conclusion was that they cut it with string instead of copper hammers. They could talk about soaking wedges, never expand it off.

Speaker 6 dw3-10:45

Are you saying using this type of thing, you saying awareness and agreement that God gets hypnotized by his own creation in a sense?

Speaker 1 dw3-10:52

Well, these are, I don't know, basically what God's doing because you're talking about him as a person and basically the discovery that you make isn't you are God. So it isn't the, but this is the world of attraction. In other words, it's like a baby, it's born. I believe when a baby's born that they have contact with reality and that little by little, by projecting visions upon them and coaxing, and it is warm in here. I wonder if we can open, yeah, little by little, the baby, the young child is weaned away from pretty much of an absolute condition and convinced of the drama that it's supposed to play, the part that's supposed to play. And I maintained that all of the, we have a conceit that we think and we don't. If you think that you think stop, try to stop thinking if you think you're doing it or try to start it.

dw3-11:58

And for instance, another thing you can't do. This is what I claim proves that to me at least that we can't study thought. We can observe a thinking process, but we can't observe thought. In other words, if you think you can observe a thought, observe the one you just had, see and you'll again be off on a concatenation of visualizations or visions. See, so that all of the human experiences are trips or visions are impacted upon our awareness by some means. Now, again, we get back to this is a different approach to thought other than a synaptic concept. In other words, there's a possibly, yes, there's a certain amount of voltage or sarco, lactic acid or whatever's necessary to keep the body conscious, to keep ourselves aware of the body consciousness. But this isn't true, I don't think because this category of dreams, the body is unconscious, but our awareness is still there, sometimes even more, let's say creatively then when we're awake, because we're continually assailed with the visions that are in our environment.

dw3-13:15

So that sleep or unconsciousness does not mean that we are not aware. It means that well always cite the case of the person on the operating table, which who would believe that he was to everybody looking around there. He would look like he was unconscious. They put him out and he believes that he's just as good as dead. But while they're operating on him, he carries on a conversation with a doctor or if he's able to, if they don't have something, stuff in his mouth. But this is quite common that people under anesthetic or in critical condition have communicated intelligently. And when they awakened, they were surprised. They thought it was a dream. They had a vague idea of a dream and they'd recall. And the only validation they had for it was that they had done something and they were just vaguely aware of it now that they wake it. So consequently, our waking state is no proof of our consciousness, nor is sleep a proof of death, nor is death a proof of death. Death as we know it.

Speaker 5 dw3-14:27

Yes. Do you have any insight in the creativity

Speaker 1 dw3-14:30

And what it was? What do you mean creativity? Human creativity. I didn't think we did anything. I didn't think we created very much. Well, yes. Yeah, something other than creativity. Monkey creativity. They could stir paint with their fingers and make marks on it.

Speaker 5 dw3-15:03

Yeah, it's back there. Importance,

Speaker 1 dw3-15:09

Happiness. I gave a lecture in Pittsburgh and I was reminded of when he talked about pleasure and happiness back there, there was a reporter there wanted to put something in newspaper about the lecture. She said to me, now, when you reach this point, naturally it's a state of bliss. Of course this is the Santa Claus syndrome that anything if you want to go for it, but there has to be a reward. I said, no, no bliss. She said, you mean tell me that this discovery of this maximum secret, you don't have any happiness. I said, what you discover is that you no longer need happiness. This is no longer important to you. It's just a relative experience. Yes.

Speaker 6 dw3-16:05

About the flashing lights from LST trip. What do you mean that?

Speaker 1 dw3-16:11

Well, they're very similar. The Ki Samati or the cosmic consciousness experience is very similar to an LSD trip. You experienced both? Yes, yes. I got interested in tinkering with LSD When I read Larry's talk, he talked about way back there, talked about finding God with LSD. So I thought, well, if this experience can be revived with a little chemical, why not try it? We'll see. So I got my hands on some and the fellow who gave it to me promised to stick around to see in case I jumped out any windows or anything. I'll tell you one thing that did happen. I died. I went through the death experience. Now there's a lot of people probably present that's taken LSD. I've talked to a lot of people across the country. In my lectures, I have encountered very few people that went through the death experience at LSD.

dw3-17:10

Most of them talk about ups and downs coming down or going up. But right at the offset, I went into a death experience. The room blacked out. Everything got very black and I expected it. But I thought, so what? I'm 50 years of age and if this kills me, so what? What's the difference? So next thing out of this darkness, of course started coming a flower, an unending flower with a peripheral. It was like the leaves are made up of an infinite number of lines which were vibrating at an electronic rate, seemingly. It was a very central experience, wasn't it? And this went on, I don't know how long it was, six hours or so, I'd come back and I'd see the room. And I remember one time I came back and it was all the flowers had turned green, the vibration was green. And pretty soon it got down to a green color. And finally I noticed there was a pussycat on the couch across the room, and I had my consciousness on one green hair in the cat's tail.

dw3-18:21

So it will not take you any place. You may have the death experience, but it's this idea of another dimension. I firmly believe that if you go that deep, you enter another dimension. But there are many, possibly many dimensions that Christ said Bible. There's many, many rooms in the mansion or something. Bardos, the Tipton's called them. There are places that you can go with and certain accounts of death signify a tremendous pleasure at the dying process. I think Shelly used to envision the ecstasy of dying, but I never bothered with it again because everyone I talked to, they said that was a very profound experience. And since it didn't produce any repetition of my previous experience, I considered it. And I'm glad I did it because I can speak a little bit from personal experience on the effects of it

Speaker 5 dw3-19:36

Alluded and light quick to get into it, otherwise late 90 literally said. Now does that mean reaches five?

Speaker 1 dw3-19:58

Well, I think that there's a certain amount of vitality needed to make the trip and come back. I think that in other words, if your blood pressure is such that you would pop one of those little veins, why it would be risky. Because it is a tremendous pressure experience. And I remember when I first entered it as I was going into it, it was an intense pain in the center of the top of my head. And I wonder, at the time I thought I was having a stroke and I was just 32 years late and I thought, oh boy, this is it. I was in Seattle, Washington, 3000 miles from home and I thought, boy, this is a nice place to blow the top off my head.

dw3-20:41

And of course the pain, I wasn't aware that the pain ever left, but I was aware of leaving my body. I was in a hotel and I went out the window. That was the first symptom of coming out the window. Now if you're say got a few years on you, it's very possible that you would actually have a stroke because it is traumatic. Another thing is that if you take the literature on it, and I was for instance, one or 32 years of age, the accounts that Bucky cites, he finds common denominators in his book and he lists them. One of them is that this occasionally occurs, usually occurs between the ages of 30 and 40. I think Buddha was supposed to reach his at 38. Christ only lived to be 33. See? And of course, I don't know how he got data on a lot of them.

dw3-21:32

St. John of the Cross was supposed to have had his experience when he was in that same category. He goes right down the line, it seems that you're not going to reach it without a certain state of maturity. You can't just say, well, I'm just going to tackle this thing and it'll happen. That's what I thought. I thought, Hey, I'll get this over and then get back to doing something else too. But I think that there's a good chance of that. Anybody that pursues the truth, honestly, they treat themselves with honesty. They're fair to themselves, don't kid themselves and follow a diligent path, a dynamic path, a direction. And of course the direction's reversed. It's a reverse direction that they will arrive. I don't think the door's closed anybody. The only thing has that, I think some of us don't come back. The experience occurs when they, and again, you go back to these people, these cases like booty and people are Ross, you find that these people do. There are certain people that have certain types of experience while dying, but they can't come back because of their physical condition. Yes. Do you experience the truth or does it experience you when you express life? Well, I think they're pretty much synonymous. I experienced myself,

Speaker 6 dw3-22:47

You use the scientific method and you reject error on the ground of what makes sense.

Speaker 1 dw3-22:52

I think so.

Speaker 6 dw3-22:53

And if it is that then it seems to me unnecessary to mystify it and make it esoteric and say that there's some connection with any kind of unknown entity. The unknown is very fascinating as well as frightening. And a lot of us will sit here and say, wow, that's unknown. I have to find out about it. Really neat. But it's not any neater than chemistry, physics, and history.

Speaker 1 dw3-23:21

Well, it's a different science. That's the only thing. It's a little different science. You're dealing in chemistry, you're dealing with the manifest tangibles. And of course I maintain of course, that even those tangibles are subject to change. I cite the case of chemistry of the Stan theory or the change from the valence theory to the bond theory. The theory changing all the time. And of course this is our concept of what materials are. But I agree with that. I think for instance, what I'm expounding is something very methodical. I wouldn't say use the word scientific because I say it's more scientific or more sensible to say that you can't postulate something before you know it. See, I think that's much more scientific now, of course, as to saying, laying down rules formulate so many atoms of this and so many ounces of energy and so many units of determination or attitude will bring you a certain result. You can't do that. That's the unscientific part. The only thing is that there's a more or less a, what do you call it, a constant inconstant that makes it impossible for it to be predictable. And that very unpredictability makes it valid. Whereas in science, it's just the opposite.

dw3-24:36

Yes. You say one of the basic requirements, being honest with yourself, yes.

Speaker 4 dw3-24:41

But there's also an implication of something you said earlier this evening that you can't do alone. You need somebody else. So apparently honesty

Speaker 1 dw3-24:49

Is enough. Well, when you become honest with yourself, you realize that you're incapable. This is one of the first things you realize your limitations. And that's when you start looking for somebody. I describe the whole system as very much like a child in grade school. I don't care for this guru disciple relationship. I mean, I think it gets into too much of blind respect, blind adoration for somebody nothing about. But nevertheless, we trust, we send our children down and somebody that's went through high school teaches the kids in grade school. And somebody that's went through college teaches the kids in high school. And we accept that because they are mature. A fellow that knows how to lay bricks may show another fellow how to lay bricks. And we don't think anything wrong. There's anything wrong with it. The same thing here, if you go down in a jungle, you try to contact a guide to somebody, say, Hey, are there snakes in there?

dw3-25:46

Where do we go to keep from getting bitten? And this sort of thing. Now that's basically what it is. You're unfamiliar terrain and the worst thing. And you may say, well, that's just a matter of a few little hints. No, no, it you're entering into a subjective path in which there are no railroad tracks. There's a time I know he's trying to cling back there to the logical railroad tracks on which we will go in a prescribed direction. But there's a point where you reach no railroad tracks. And if the intuition isn't developed, but that's time you're done, you may enter into a fanatic acceptance of something. And this is when somebody standing at your shoulder says, Hey, I used to say that in old Roman history. They talk about this slave that wrote on the chariot with Caesar and kept shouting in his ear, trying to shout louder than the crowd that was applauding. Remember O Caesar that th human because he's hidden, getting fatter and fatter. And he thought by the time he gets down to the front of the podium, they'll be making a god out of him. Well, the same thing happens on these spiritual past that we get all sorts of inflated ideas about what we're doing. And sometimes the fellow standing on the side lines can say, Hey boy, I went through that too. So be careful. You might inflate yourself out of common sense.

dw3-26:59

We were

Speaker 4 dw3-26:59

Talking about

Speaker 1 dw3-26:59

Transmission.

dw3-27:01

The transmission is a different thing. That's what I was really transmission. Transmission is a method. I talked about true psychology in relation to transmission. Very few people are able to transmit. There was a transmission is the method by which a person can enter your mind. And in so doing his mind and yours will be one, and his experience of enlightenment will be one with you. So that a vicarious way of realizing something without going through the labor yourself, this is transmission. Now, this is a rare art. For instance, I met a zen master, one zen master that was able to transmit, and incidentally, it might sound like fiction to you, he could do it at a distance.

dw3-27:47

On the other hand, I read literature of Wayne Poe. Wayne Poe was supposed to said There is no, he called it Chang. It was in China, it's called Zen in Japan, it was called Chang. He made a remark to a bunch of monks. He said, there is no Chang in China. And they said, why not? There are so many monasteries and they have two or 3000 students of zen in them, and you can tell me there's no chang. And he said, there's no zen without chang, without transmission. And there isn't a single man in China that can transmit imagine of all these thousands of people. So consequently, this is something that you don't encounter, but if you are near it, you'll see. You'll know what's happening. It's a direct what transmission is direct mind to mind. And of course we have the part of our system.

dw3-28:35

I haven't expounded too much on it. And even if you attended the groups, it would be rather vague to you because we believe in approaching the truth by, and they said, why not? There's so many monasteries and they have two or 3000 students of zen in them. And you mean tell me there's no chang. And he said, there's no zen without chang, without transmission. And there isn't a single man in China that can transmit imagine of all these thousands of people. So consequently, this is something that you don't encounter, but if you near it, you'll see. You'll know what's happening. It's a direct what transmission is direct mind to mind. And of course we have a part of our system. I haven't expounded too much on it. And even if you attended the groups, it would be rather vague to you because we believe in approaching the truth by a sort of little, almost looks like an encounter group.

dw3-29:29

When you first get into, it's like a challenging of each other's thoughts. Why do you think it along a certain way? Are you being honest with yourself with this or that? That sort of thing. But then we have what we call rapport sessions in which we're trying to develop the intuition also to sort of get the head in a position where transmission can be affected, where direct mind to mind can be experienced. And this comes about slowly but surely to where you'll sit and look at another man and say, you're thinking this and be right Then when your head is ready for transmission. So the transmission doesn't only occur with you, between you and somebody else. It can occur in between any two people. The only difference is you can only transmit what you have. So that one person may transmit some great love secret and another person may transmit an experience similar to satori or cosmic consciousness, but you can only transmit what's already in the experiential computer, so to speak.

dw3-30:24

Yes. Experience with awareness of yourself now or is something that you lose come back? Well, you, it dims and brightens. I can tell you there's times when you're very much aware of your body. For instance, this is like they say that the whole world's an illusion to pay no attention to it. But it's not an illusion When a truck hits you or breaks your leg, the illusion becomes a very real illusion. It's still an illusion, but it's very real. So consequently, that person with a broken leg is going to be very much aware regardless of whether he's been enlightened or not. He's going to be aware of the physical play act. On the other hand, there'll be times when his mind or his awareness will drift back to the other experience. Now he'll not go into it completely. You can't without going through the death experience again. But he will go back to the point where he remembers it very vividly.

dw3-31:21

No, no, that's not between us, us as a method between, this is another law. He's referring to a law. There's a certain way that you're able to hold your head in north reed minds. And this is by keeping your head just on perfect balance, not being to the left or to the right. And this is different between us. What I'm talking about is that you're just never completely in the world and you're never completely in an enlightenment experience. And when you are completely, I mean when you come back, when you are completely in it, then you're in it. That's all. But lots of times you'll be aware of it. And unpredictable moments too. Listen, if any of you have to go anywhere, don't hesitate. I'm just answering any questions. If anyone wants to talk informally, why I hear to talk, because I'll be heading back. I only be down here by with a year. Yes.

Speaker 2 dw3-32:23

Do I understand you correctly saying that this transmission is very important to the attainment of the repeat experience?

Speaker 1 dw3-32:31

Well, I would say that it's a validation which a person doesn't have. If they pursue a solitary path, I think it'll give you the zest to go through and experience it for yourself, the

Speaker 2 dw3-32:42

Whole thing. So your group is

Speaker 1 dw3-32:46

Oriented toward creating this, preparing that they, so that they will be able to use a direct mind, what I call direct mind communication. Have you run into any ways in which the groupness of your group, you get group states of mind? Sure. You're always battling a group state of mind, states of mind are the biggie. This occupies one whole chapter of the book is the idea of being able to pick up states of mind. Because as long as you're in a state of mind, you'll not have direct mind communication. For instance, it's just like an animal in heat. You're not going to be aware except of the object of your heat. See? So that's an extreme example. But there are other states of mine too where you could go into a picture show. And I know when I was a kid, I used to go into the picture show and came out like Horatio Alger, I wanted to change the world.

dw3-33:37

That's because I got into a state of mind. See, but the true state of mind is not that the true state of mind is not even the mind that rejects it before you go in the picture show, either you may have been turbulent or something you want to get in, get something off your mind. So consequently, it's very difficult to keep and hold a true state of mind. We continually flock from one state of mind to another. And to hold a true state of mind is to have the experience basically is basically a true state of no mind. Yes. Trying pass it on. I think that's the only excuse I've got. In other words, I've often wondered a lot of people say, well, what are you hanging around here for? And I don't know why I'm hanging here.

Speaker 5 dw3-34:28

Do you think?

Speaker 1 dw3-34:33

Well, I think it's a direct mind. We have experienced lots of times more than one person in a group having a certain rapport. But the transmission is not, I don't think it would be attainable by more than a one-to-one. I've never heard any cases of it being picked up by two people at once because basically it calls for me. For instance, if I'm the one acting would call for me to lock your head with mine, now I'm not too much capable of locking my head with multiple heads. In other words, you fasten yourself to the other person's mind and you basically move them with your hip. Why you're so fastened.

dw3-35:20

Yeah. Are you saying that your system is a way of preparing someone for you say something about preparation to think about?

Rose: Well, outside of what I've already told you, there are two things that are practiced. The one is the arrival knowledge of let's say the mundane self or the personality, the discrepancies, the elimination of discrepancies in the personality, false police and that sort of thing. The second one is the practice that aims toward direct mind communication. Now, there's nothing complicated about that. In other words, it's just a confrontation. We call it like an encounter with people actually try to be honest and that sort of thing. The same thing with the rapport. Now, first with rapport exercise only certain people will have rapport with each other easily. So that sometimes you have selective groups. Four or five people will experiment. When they find out that they can have rapport, you'll isolate those from the main body and then the remainder will try to find four or five people that will have rapport see in this fashion. So other than that, there's not too much. In other words, there's a lot of feeling as you go, so to speak. Now from there on, it's an individual thing where you'll watch, somebody will come and say, Hey, I don't feel like I'm making any progress. I've had this repeated. And for instance, I remember one case who's been in the group a year and he had tried to kill himself right before he came to our place. It was a combination of disease and drugs and depression.

dw3-36:56

But he was also saving all of these money to go up and be amazed by one janov, I think his name was primal. He wanted to scream Janov primal scream. And he was saving all these do for this. So the boys in the group kind of discouraged him from going month at a time. Well sit around and see if you want quiet down here. Well, he complained after a year that he didn't feel like he was going any place. And so we just said, okay. I said to him, ask some of the others. They were sitting around, ask some of the others, and they start telling him, well, when you came here, here's what you were doing. And now look. And he had to be reminded of because nobody feels like there's any change right now. Everybody feels like they've been this way all their life, but they haven't.

dw3-37:41

You're not the same person you were a week ago, perhaps. I always bring out below analogies, the man who puts a cup of or his lips is not the same man. That sets it down. You immediately develop another personality and you're critical of the personality of a half hour ago you say, that wasn't me. That was a fool. I'm the smart guy now. But after he gets good and drunk, then he comes out of it and he says, that was a fool. See now I've got to start and find my sanity again. So that sort. So basically to answer to your question, there are individual steps and everyone is different because everyone encounters different things that cause traumas and he reacts differently to those traumas.

Speaker 5 dw3-38:46

Talk your dad,

Speaker 1 dw3-38:53

The comprehension of it will change gradually from year to year to where your presence, idea of pleasure, you'll laugh at it later. Mr. Rose, what is the value of your description, of your experience? The back of your book. And it can't be described in, I think people pick it up. I got feelings, but it's nothing in the words. Nothing at all. But I warn that in the book. Oh yeah. Don't go by the words, because it was only the experience of the word. I'll tell you something. I use this. I could have left it out of the book because pretty, but I well this way printed and something happens and it'll be available. But basically when someone approaches a realization, I'll repeat this to her and they'll know. It means the meeting comes through. How did that come to you? Did you have to sit down and think about it? No, no, no. It was all written within an hour.

dw3-39:53

I had decided. When I came back, I didn't know what to do because first of all, I tried to communicate, talked about to people. How long did it last you? It was with me. It was only three or four hours, I guess. I know it don't think it was over ever. That of course I was unconscious. I mean I was unconscious as far as time was concerned. I was in Seattle when I got out. I wasn't able quite a while. It was a draining. Yes, well know that. But it's hell. It's hell going in. It's hell coming out because it's hell to die. Unexpected unexpectedly. You think you're dying. And then of course when you come back and you realize that nothing happened, you're perfectly healthy. And then you realize that you have to leave reality. And once more, you either you've got a choice now, either sweat it out and you're back in the experience you had to go or committed suicide.

dw3-40:43

And of course then again you think, well, this is what I want to see. I'll tell you the reason that I do what I'm doing was when I was in my twenties, by your age, I started off on this thing pretty seriously, 21 years old. And I ran into so many that I do what I'm doing. When I was in my twenties, when I was about your age, I started off on this thing pretty seriously when I was 21 years old and I ran into so many ponies, so many guys that had something to sell, something to gain. Sometimes it's money, but sometimes it sex sexually say, Hey, I got the answer. After something sexual, I would get infuriated. And I get the point where I'm kill people.

dw3-41:33

This is a sacred subject to me. This is man's definition is search for God. Here's these treats in here trying to process. Right? So I pledged that if I ever found anything, I would make it available without charge if I was able, of course, a limit to how much you do without charge. But I believe that the number of people that are ready to experience it doesn't take a whole lot of, I believe a lot in de I believe that people that stand around here, and I don't believe that this is an accident. I believe there are certain people, like portion million people or half a million people. How many people gravitate here given of the people gravitate? How many of the stay want to look a little deeper? That sort. So consequently, I believe that they will gravitate if they have a sincere desire someplace where they will be able to progress if they're honestly self sincere.

dw3-42:26

Because the thing is that first of all, you think that terrible sacrifice and this life doesn't mean anything anyhow. You don't know if you're going to live like a goat and it just vegetate, reproduce and die. Well, that has no meaning. I'm undefined to action. So I made up my mind that I didn't care if I went crazy, if I lost my life in the process of make myself sick or whatever happens, it was more important for me to find the truth about it if I found it or to kick the fucking try than to live without being defined. And it's because I run into all this last try to make it available. Well, I soon, I had the experience. I come back and I ran into a old friend of mine. We've been on the path together and he was rather over joy. I read the three books he asked to, we joined and start weeping.

dw3-43:15

Weeping. But very few people read it and got that same reaction. And so we occasionally, he and I would get a few little group of people together, but they were too busy making a nickel for Kroger's. They had their games light there that way and they couldn't get out of the house except once in a great while or something that sort. He'd get rather despondent and then say, well, maybe it is my age. Maybe I'm not supposed to be preaching to stuff. Maybe their time hasn't come, my time hasn't come or something. And I actually quit from the time I was 30. I was 50. I got married, I raised the family. My youngest kid would take care of yourself. They sent word down from Pittsburgh. I was about then, but the Esso Society and I went up, up and talked. This fellow here came to one of my talks. He was going to the University of Pittsburgh at time and a couple of these fellows ran to speak at university. The next thing you know, a group formed hadn't the book at that time was in an eight and a half 11 thing that was staple with a carpet stapler. I put it together the first time I put in a hundred copies. They like, I thought, well, I a hundred people. But the thing, just by virtue of gravity or something, a lot of young people.

File dw4

Speaker 1 dw4-00:02

Put I talking about it and I was amazed He step of his space, so I had a 300 acre piece of ground. Virginia said, well we'll use that for, I just still there. They're all good people. I'm amazed that Virginia amazed. I find out that everything will happen if you don't try to make it happen. I

Speaker 2 dw4-00:26

Ask you, do you know if any women

Speaker 1 dw4-00:29

Have experiences? Yes. Ratio 50 50?

dw4-00:37

Well, I would say the accounts are more men than women by far. Yes. I can tell you why. Of course. You've got to prepare yourself for the fact that women are not equal. The men, most people refuse to accept In what ways? Huh? I'd say they're inferior. They're not equal. They're not the same. The woman can pick it up much quicker but their action is not consistent because they're programmed by nature to forget hormonal. We are basically animals that are programmed a certain way. We and goat and the women are hens and NGOs. You know what I mean? Huh? Right, right. For instance, we criticize. We criticize a woman for as her husband gets ground up, she doesn't weep because she's got three children. Her computer is such as her children. If she kept three children, two of 'em be killed and she'll survive and take care of the fourth. Third one, A man might not. I've known men drinking never come back because they're programed differently, but their programmed to forget in order to carry the species, keep going and if women are honest for themselves, they would know much more about themselves. This idea of saying they do everything a man can do is just a fool can say that a man can get pregnant.

Speaker 2 dw4-02:05

Another question for you. Do you have any powers to do anything? The mental state can, you wanted you feeling about that earlier but you didn't feel, you thought it was cool you waste your time because they would just go back to doing whatever they were into, but do you have any such power?

Speaker 1 dw4-02:24

It happened. It happened. What do you mean by that? Well, I don't try to heal, but it happened. You haven't forced it. It just, yes, it happened. I'd get a nurse to remove somebody's headache and I go and take their headache away. Crazy, but do you know, I don't know who you're talking about, but I never met her. Why did you experience this LSD trip at the age of 50 if you had already gone enlightenment at 32? I thought it was that the chemical would create a death experience and it would be renewed. It did create a death experience but it didn't renew the experience itself. I understand. I don't understand. It created the same experience but didn't renew What? Oh no. It created a death experience which is necessary to go through the enlightenment but it didn't produce the enlightenment. The physical part of it was there but not the awareness. Well, yeah, I don't think the chemical, the chemical is synthetic sort of death, so do you know when you die

Speaker 2 dw4-03:36

What you will experience? Yes. When? Yes. Biologically. Anything like death, do you know what will happen to your state of being or conscience

Speaker 1 dw4-03:48

Will continue? If it didn't, I wouldn't talk to you. If's oblivious. What's waiting for you? I keep your peace of mind better to have peace of mind. Better for you to believe you're going to other would like to believe if I had discovered that oblivion was the answer I keep, there's nothing. Right? Right. It just makes people turbulent. Nothing. I'm over there. I'm in the panhandle in the Ohio, the high river. I'm just, my place is about two miles from the Pennsylvania border and about 15 miles from high West Virginia. Yeah, Eastern. No. Getting back to this thing I want to explain to you, the female is able to pick this up very quickly, much more quicker than a man, like an intuition. A girl or a woman can come in and they'll hear me talk and they'll know me.

Speaker 2 dw4-05:11

Man that have to work at

Speaker 1 dw4-05:12

Right. He may doubt and he's supposed to, he may say, well I got to analyze this a bit. Let's, let's put the little slide to work on and analyze it and that's proper. I maintain that this intuition thing and the woman also is part of the computer deal in that they had to make very quick decisions in protecting the young. They had to be able to sense better than the males because they had the survival of the whole race so they had to develop this sense genetic but they also this unfortunate ability to forget means it makes the subject to more states of mind. I'm talking about a 28 day cycle, which the man doesn't go through. He can go to a solar cycle yearly cycle.

Speaker 2 dw4-05:58

Do you believe in those bio rhythms and body bio rhythms things? Have you read

Speaker 1 dw4-06:03

About that? Yes, I've heard a little bit about it. I dunno too much about it, but we had girls from here.

Speaker 2 dw4-06:12

I went to one of the meetings work

Speaker 1 dw4-06:22

What I was Is that the way truth?

Speaker 2 dw4-06:30

I didn't know enough about it. I wanted to read your book before why got into, I thought it was a waste of my time if I hadn't read. I

Speaker 1 dw4-06:37

Wonder how much of course you'll get from the book. I hope you get some but basically there's a lot I didn't say because I read it from the general public and it was like there's information in giving. I don't care to put anything in the book that could be challenged logically because that would just cause them this argument. I laid a few things down and how to analyze your mind, watch things. Are you going to do some more writing on a more direct level? Well I have the other papers written, the transmission paper. Why are they, well, they're available to get ahold of the born free or they have anybody that has the other book. I want to ask you another

Speaker 2 dw4-07:13

Question. Do you which have to do, do you believe in extraterrestrial life, other kids, do you believe that they're in some, I don't mean life as we know it, I mean unicellular, whatever on other plants. Do you believe that that could exist or that out of the real I possibility I exist, you find

Speaker 1 dw4-07:35

Enlightenment. There are no planets. Only all the planets that exist inside my planetarium the dome in my head.

Speaker 2 dw4-07:46

Well you said you went out of the window. I'm just wondering where you went from there. Speaker 1 dw4-07:51

I went over the Cascade Mountain first. So I could see the street daylight. Had you ever seen it with traveling there beforehand because they say you can't dream about anything unless you've seen it first. Have you ever heard that?

Speaker 1 dw4-08:05

I had never seen talk against Mountain. In fact they Northwestern but I remember this and then there was a flip over. There was a time when I don't now I saw humanity. I saw every human being. I was every human being that ever lived picture and I looked, I didn't realize I saw myself. I see myself climbing Pyramid Mag and they were all climbing manifest what? After all church. At what point did you realize that this wasn't like an experience? Well, when I realized, first of all I realized that I was looking, was looking from a point of which I was the observer of all of this and I realized then I was most man in business people I was most man what I called the gavel and the man of the mountain and then I realized that both of these did not exist. My previous idea of reality it didn't exist then because magazine, but that was when this flip over occurred and then I realized that I was everything getting through everything that was there.

Speaker 3 dw4-09:23

You were talking about more men having enlightenment experiences for women and you were saying that this was a cause of women tending to forget easier because of what The program to leave. Well wouldn't it being enlightened automatically recondition you? Well eliminate the conditioning that you've had.

Speaker 1 dw4-09:41

Oh, if a woman receives enlightenment, I know one woman that did knew person. I may know I knew another older lady Immediately upon the receipt of this your nature and you're no longer subject to,

Speaker 3 dw4-09:54

Okay, well that's what

Speaker 1 dw4-09:56

Clear

Speaker 3 dw4-09:56

About. I thought you were indicating that even though we're enlightened, we still are program.

Speaker 1 dw4-10:00

There is no difference between this. This is where the similarity occurs is that basically even a dog or a horse is a ray of the apps and there's no male in female, there's no male in female and of course you can speculate like a dog, a horse being marine coordinator. I don't even know if it's necessary. Sometimes I think they're more aware than we are because they have direct mind communication with each other. You don't? Yeah, the absolute, the ray of the absolute Is that just life or is it in an object? No, it's you. It's you. Each ray is a separate creature. Each ray, this ray now is part like a sun person like the spokes of they go back to this hub but at the same time they always remain a part of it. An inseparable part of that hub be raised the son inseparable part of the south, it's an extension of the son by that person is an inseparable extension of God.

dw4-11:03

The only thing that separates you from God is the belief that you're separated from what? What does he Mr. Me? Why then are we each standing here speaking to each other individually as separate people? We believe we have to see, even if you go, even if you reached enlightenment at exactly the same time I did, you would realize that you are everything and that you're a God and I would've at the same time realized that I was everything and that I was God. That wouldn't mean that you was only half a God and I was the other half. Now that's a paradox. This thing is full of paradoxes but that is the truth that you are only a part of me and in your realization I'm only a part of you. The final analysis will all until you know that some people try to leave the head who knows, not speaking I don't believe it. I wouldn't be talking this workshop that what do they believe in visualization, such thing and I got a paper written.

Speaker 4 dw4-12:34

Their basic thing is to start out with a visualization

Speaker 1 dw4-12:37

And then at one point you go beyond and you don't need visualization. Well keep it down to other than me, I've not been successful done for another traumatic expense in my life I couldn't get into. Yeah, right. Saying again just like believe you're an apple. It's like a lot of people do agree. That doesn't mean I don you can't extricate. The thing is the thing is visual. What makes your personality today? What's visual

Speaker 4 dw4-13:36

Asking? Their basic thing is you start out as the visualization and then at one point you go beyond and

Speaker 1 dw4-13:48

Well keep down. Other than me, I've not been successful. Another traumatic experie in my life, I couldn't get into the visualization. Yeah, right. Again, I just like you believe you're an apple. A lot of people gone. I'm saying that according to my belief you can't extricate. Now the is the thing is anything visual, what makes your personality today what you visualize in other you shave off your fear then go look in the mirror. Your personality will start to change. You'll start to act like you look what you visual that a guy looks like. This must act. You start to create. By the same token, you start to visualize anything. If it's a light or a chakra or an astro body or whatever, always double check and see if you are based that's, I'm not saying these things are falling always. This is the first step of validity. Careful the validity that I saw kind mentioned is that

Speaker 4 dw4-15:19

Dreams and everything else else, act symbols. That's what they use. They use. You got to visualize yourself the one point that you walking down these steps that's like I guess you're going into your sub subconscious and you're going into a lake. I can see where

Speaker 1 dw4-15:36

Symbolically things that's Well I don't advise anybody because I find that too many of 'em come too fast. There's a lot of stuff too that I like as elective. I know what causes a lot of prevent the idea of accepting certain things that are possibly visualized before they got too real. This person be free and witchcraft. I think it's a joke. Part of the experience thing and then they come to me when they're possessed actually had somebody walking behind them and they saw it and they believed it was us and their belief may have encouraged stay discussion, discussion or not, right? Their belief may have been caused it to appear as well. Manifest secretary, no, they're as real as you are. These things get on them. There's real as you are as real fleet, they're parasitic. The creation has more dimensions than what you think.

dw4-17:03

That's another thing about psychology than I. What you see is what's here, things that are here that you can't see some people can see and as a whole like I cite this case of the exorcist is a valid experience. I saw the Washington paper 1949 when this boy was exercised taking in exercise. They made a movie of a girls the boy and these things were real enough that kids didn't have this movie on but this priest came up to him and had his book. He was reading his sexist grace and the kid walking up and cut the book in it dis right? That's how real the car nothing, so lot of the modern psychologist say nothing's there. That's an imagination but how they explain the confetti but they explain it by say it didn't happen. You know what I mean? I know I've known too much about exorcist rights know that a hell of a lot of danger involved in investing people possess.

dw4-18:03

Is it possible that for instance these in the exorcist situation that through some type of mental imbalance, something that happened to the child's traumatic experience that he himself is manifesting all these things? No, no. He don't manifest any. If you've, you've got an exposed blood bean, you might attract a leash but that leach is a drill. Your boss and these s are as real as you even though they're not witness. These eyeballs are not a yard stick to reality and this is one of the things I mentioned in the book. The illusions we're limited in our optical range and some people aren't in the August stuff. You can see actually girls came down, I didn't know down in the kitchen. He was ugly.

dw4-18:58

He brought him down. In fact I saw them. One girl had independent use eyeball. One person this eyeball knew do you have a glass? I thought the glasses was staying in the room said no, they move independently. I was sitting in the kitchen, I have to see a preacher behind her, right over that shoulder, see over the right shoulder. I said, do you realize that you have a bug with a demon? She said, oh yes. I had five one time ions that come down and I found out that they had been on the bombing of laboratory management up first claim laboratories making stuff, defense department and they killed them, blew up the explosion. So they were in this and they got into this business witchcraft and matching and stuff and I guess unfortunately only have one on our that I can try to help because the simple fact that he invited, so we invited how can you help somebody? You work on certain levels,

Speaker 4 dw4-20:31

Difficult kind of lens. I you compromise. I think that your system really given the human condition as it is, treats me the most valid equity truth, but how do you know that the absolute or whatever you arrive at is not perhaps some subconscious creation that has been manufactured out of your awareness of a boom. There it is and you accept as such. I

Speaker 1 dw4-21:05

Have no proof of my sanity or my truth. You have no authority. Right? Well I know, but I mean I believe you have to go this route. I believe it's sensible and as I say, I always say doubt me, doubt me. Don't start to accept an authority. The only reason, the only reason for the book is a challenge to say this can be done if it feels your intuition. If there is a possible direction, maybe you'll take a direction. The direction may be tired of yours after you take it. I take a direction hung like to any of these phenomena are verifiable by ordinary western scientific.

dw4-21:54

Oh yes, I think they are. I think for instance, I think the one I just mentioned, the judges, they the Bible or whatever it is and it disappears. It's not answerable of science so therefore they've got to admit it. Nature of some sort. Now I think that this for instance, I think that a lot of psychological defense, all psychology does explain, they don't prove anything but they're just as easily explainable according this concept and reduced by this makes it balance with the fact procedure. You say, Hey, this person's possessed. Everybody was everybody possess. Some of it are by what I call the easy heterosexual heterosexual angel. You got to watch the ones that aren't most people. But anyhow, there's proof. There's proof to this extent that a person gets this having a, you apply, you're cure and it works. Whereas a psychologist would be come the land go years and years, few years refuses to believe anything but a purposeful reaction and this is a girl talking about healing, but I did this one, I don't try to remember, I was working some years back, a friend of my wife's induced by, she was pretty patient because we back to school dar.

dw4-23:44

Now this guy twit ran into this information, put it into different, pour it in a different mold in came mouth of his own revelation because the words were almost different. Levels we're typical. This brought us wanting sex. He charged, did he have the ability to get out of his body and everything? I don't believe he had anything but he may have I should say, slapped me. He was selling sell something. Well, I can't see how a man is having real ultimate knowledge. Best reason they come to charge is something like you don't pay for it. Now you P for karma or something like that. Well yeah, a lot of them Hindu outfits will say, you give me all your world karma. They're talking about your bank account. This is nonsense. Yeah, they've got clever ways of getting the money off of it, but basically he switzer didn't look too long after he started that he died.

dw4-24:41

The guy that I see face down the papers it looks like he's got is a hard looking appearance, a Nazi leader and I think he's just as unscrupulous, but what I'm going by is the fact that I know the secrets. I got 'em for nothing. That's kind conclusion I came to, but I just used somebody throw their lies into it. They've been trips. Like I said, I used to get enraged about all this stuff. I was talking up at Akron the other day and some guy asked me if I had any vendettas and I said, I don't know. I don't have any what's the use? But I did get irritated with these so-called news bleeding children, young people who are sincere and they want to do something like sent them meditation.

Speaker 4 dw4-25:32

I started 25 and he used to try to give it out nothing in Hawaii as we first started out, nobody was taking them up on it. How put a price on it. America,

Speaker 1 dw4-25:44

If you put a price down it, you get right. People want, that's the same way. I have the same thing. If I would come down here and lay down a sensible plan by which I could say, well, step 1, 2, 3 and four and so on, we'll bring you to a certain state of mind in which you will be able to win at the stock market. I could charge a thousand dollars and say I'm only going to take 10% of the people that apply and there'll be a rush. They'll kick the door in if they find out there's something going to be 10% allowed through the door. This is human nature, but it has to remain that way for me because I don't care. You're not going to get seekers anyway. You're going to get people want to buy something. Well, yeah, I don't believe in, I don't believe in quantity. Anyhow, I was giving first set up the group of Pittsburgh, we had a minor revolution food group, so I said, well, I won't be back. I walked out Wal just came down and said, Mr. Rose, I'm afraid the group just disappeared. And I said, you're here, aren't you? I said, if you're here out of sincerity, that don't matters to me one person. No. If you're not here, well then I'll still to you. What I can is the truth, but I will not compromise for numbers.

dw4-27:07

Tell me this. Don't you think that these

Speaker 4 dw4-27:10

Rather accounts of human possession that you just gave,

Speaker 1 dw4-27:18

These are kind of sensational things that you think being the fact just as much as any other, and isn't that subject to make you get the psychological state of mind and produce the effect? You mean the people didn't believe in it, they wouldn't exist. No. What I'm not saying that necessarily, but what I'm saying is that when you suggest to us that there are extraterrestrial beams, aren't we going to try to see these? And then I never did. I never Did I see enough of 'em without trying? Yeah, but I've been in the room getting them out. You must realize that there are those around here who may think we see them even though we don't. Oh, that's true. Because we try to see, well, don't try. I don't want you to try to see them. That's part of the system. If you try to see any of that stuff, I hope you never have to see them. Part of that, it's only an week in six 10 sand.

dw4-28:17

You want to see if anything sneaking up behind you. Don't discount it if there's evidence it isn't part. In other words, I don't see, the thing is I think this is bad to ignore as it is to create. I do believe if you become like a child, sometimes you can strike fear in a child's mind to where they would be because so I don't believe in talking to little babies at the same time. You don't want to wait until they got their marles in you. You can't get free because they are there. In other words, it is not something splu. It's a different rate of vibration.

dw4-29:01

Anything. You know this yourself that we are 90% where the molecule are. We close up, have wide the orbit. We know space and matter are space between the atoms, molecular orbit. So there's a tremendous lot of space inside of our body and the only reason we see it is because our eyes are adjusted to that molecular rate. You pick something with a lesser rate from that orbit expands or contracts, you know what I mean? One or the other, and if molecular orbit expands, you wouldn't see. You could walk through 'em. You could walk between is more. It's that simple. They're material and they feed off of exudation material. Exudation ECT is another example. It's an exudation of the physical body which is produced by energy, which is comes from food, but it's real. The psychologist again might say, all ect, nothing. I've seen it. I've seen it.

dw4-30:02

Does that relate to the aura and any,

Rose: I don't know whether if that's the same as an aura or not because I have never, I've heard people say they see colored a, I have never seen an aura, but I can see you. I can see energy, I can tell where energy is, and you've got energy of your vacuum and by that I get the same result. I can see if you're minus or plus if you're, some people are vital and capable, what I call quantum energy. Other people are like sponges. They don't do anything but tape. So this becomes manifest to me as soon as I meet them in a rapport meeting. You can do this now can the person, yeah, you can control it by getting away from 'em. That's all.

Speaker 2 dw4-30:43

Q. But how's the person want to get away from? Let they control it.

Rose: You don't have to get away

From, yeah, well, the individual has to change his way of living. That's all. There's different things will cause if you've got a bad physical sickness, like you're running a temperature or something like that and your energy is drained where you'll have a low quantum energy, but unless you've kept cancer or something serious like that, you shouldn't have low energy. But I could see you used to be able to see the difference in the guy has a headache. Tell him where the headache was, what part of his head was point to it. No, no, I do, but I mean I don't, this happens. I don't. You can't concentrate. No, no, no. I remember it was, we were talking about this going down in the car and there was a girl came into Providence about 20, what is cc? About 22, 23 years old, about 24, and I was sitting in rapport with her, sitting in two chairs like this. I didn't lose enough and I could lean over it, pipe her on his chest. I closed my eyes and I could see it was better with my, I closed my eyes and I saw what amazes a distinct line across the chest come up like this.

dw4-32:00

So I thought, wonder if I'm seeing that, if it's my imagination, so I'm going to see it. I can put my finger on her breast bone without my eyes, and I put it right with this line across in my mind's eye that I'll know that I'm saying something. I kept my eyes closed, reached out right in the middle of the breast, right with this line across, open my eyes, and I seen the line across the chest. What that mean? I also saw a massive black in the bottom of abdomen coming up like a stem. And this disturb me also very healthy.

dw4-32:37

Look at it, very husky. She had been up before she come to my place. She'd been to Pittsburgh and went through a clinic class had, and the report came the next day, said she had a string of macrophage tumor, mid long string of now what causes that? I know that the worst thing, I think that was small compared to what I saw down below. So I used to see, I'd be sitting in a report section, I could see a full headache and I, you're having a pain. We'd break up the fourth, taking all the energy. You either could be older or you'd have to quit.

dw4-33:26

There's not much real rational explanation for it. I don't search it out. I don't think it comes from sympathy. And I think sympathy is a bad thing to have in a way, when you're in this, as soon as you're sympathetic to a person, you're drained. You wouldn't deny the possibility. Rational explanation. Well, when I say rational explanation, I don't mean I'll give you fake for I have an, I think it goes back to quantum energy. I can't prove this. You're not familiar with quantum, right? My belief that you eat food and when you eat food, a certain amount of it goes directly to energy. Kinetic much your energy, a certain amount is deposited in fat and a certain amount goes to nervous. The nervous system. What subtle energy goes to nervous system? I'm not sure, but I do know that we have what I call somatic energy, energy, a fat muscle, nerve, and energy.

dw4-34:31

Now you say, oh, well, so what? No, no, these are different. These are different. The muscle energy is strictly for moving the body, whereas nervous energy somehow is able to summon energy to the nervous system and expend it through the nervous system. It's far superior to the muscular energy. You can instantly drain with your nervous system. You can drain the energy from the whole body in just a few seconds. And I explained to you how in a crisis, I remember one time I saw a wreck and a truck fell on, two people upset. I hit the taxi cab and fell over on two people, myself and another person picked up a two ton truck. We got a hold of it, we couldn't move it. And I started cursing, curing, come on, it moved. We lifted that truck, the on wheels and get those people out.

dw4-35:15

One of 'em died, pulled them out direction. I couldn't have done this. My car, huh? This was the nervous system summoning all the energy for a given task. Now the same thing happens when you are intense about your studies. In other words, when you study a certain amount, you'll get weak. Weakness is a sign of the cessation or loss of energy. And this means that the mental processes are able to drain the body. This is a sublimation product they call sublimation, but this is for the development of what I call mental project energy or neural, which is by some mechanics. That nervous system is like the voting of the whole body can be exerted and there's the muscles before the arm has time to think and it has to do something. And because for the tissue instance, give an example, you have a tremendous task to perform.

dw4-36:07

The replenishment of that tissue in your biceps and that sort thing take power to build up that strength. And here it's being that quick. See, so this can only be done with what I call neuro energy. Now, the process that we go by virtue of projector is another step. This is still within the head. Now we did it. We looked up the truck by the muscle. But there's another thing you can do, like Gary Geller, you can move the truck with your mind. But this calls for the incessant concentration upon what I call spiritual quantum energy in which you project, you don't have to touch the man to healing. You can look at him. You don't have to touch the man to have a transmission. You just look at him and boom, you'll see it. And he groups, you don't see here much because I'm, these boys have all seen it.

dw4-36:54

Or I would just look at somebody or point at somebody and they hit the floor of it. And this is by virtue of projecting more sublimated or raised energy. Yeah, generally I'm very weak. Now, there are ways that I can do this without getting weak. It's just the way I hold my head. Again, it depends on sympathy. If I'm sympathetic too sympathetic, I'll get weak. If I'm not sympathetic, that didn't weaken me a bit. Oh, no, no. I moved a upon myself in some extent, right? Yeah. Oh, that's amazing. Too related. Yeah, right. Real. Thank God got him out. Right. I imagine maybe under some conditions it would, but the weakest I've gotten is from maybe healing somebody or we sit in a core roof. There'd be a lot of energy grains. You ever

Speaker 2 dw4-37:49

Walk along whatever

Speaker 1 dw4-37:58

Rose: Over, oh yeah. We were talking about this coming down when I was younger, prior to say 40 years of age, I didn't care for people at all. I cared for places, actions like travel, going to the movies. But I find that I can see people. I'm fascinated by people. You'll find real people. And when you find them, they're very fascinating. And when you develop this one-to-one rapport, that's when you know them. I remember some outstanding cases. This was total strangers. Total strangers. And the most outstanding case was in Atlantic City. I went down, my daughter was in the hospital there, and I went in the door and there was a band about 60 years of age here, big black man, real black. And our eyes caught and looked at him and he's rather gruff as if he didn't want me to come through that door.

dw4-38:56

Rose: I was coming through or something, or somebody that was parking in a place outside. That's what it was. And he was trying to catch, the guy was parking, no parking zone. And our eyes met. And for some reason I knew that man, I'd known him for a hundred years and he caught it a startling. And every time I come through that door after that, in the short time I was there, he'd look at me and smile. Both of us knew each other, never spoke a word, never spoke a word to each other, but you pick this up. After the same way I was going down an elevator, ROEs in the elevator, boy, I looked inside of his head. And when you'd go up, you can look inside of a person's head and know what you're thinking. And the other party generally knows it real quick. They know you're in there. Frightened, frightened guy. I just decided I'm going to see if the Arab state of mind is the same as mine. I went inside of his head.

dw4-39:48

But one of the symptoms you'll feel mostly with women, it's your heart. You won't feel it in your head. You'll feel it in your heart. Woman will feel it in your heart. Yeah. A man has sort of a head experience, but the woman, right, right. Expect to be psychological men. Not with everybody. Men typically think of themselves as more Oh, don't see. I don't think that that when it comes to a superiority, I consider that the female has the superior potentials. That is in perception. I think that we are much more dull. In other words, I consider it a sign of intelligence or successful adaptability dependent. That means thinking dependent upon nerve ends and the male's nerve ends are hardened by centuries of battle. Whereas the female says she has to remain sensitive. Her sensitivity makes her perceptive. That's the whole secret for Perceptivity is her.

Footnotes

Url: http://direct-mind.org/index.php5?title=1977-0311-University-Maryland-Baltimore

Patrick Flanagan, Pyramid Power. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Flanagan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D._T._Suzuki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Watts http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Kapleau Audiobook here: http://selfdefinition.org/zen/ The Practice of Zen. Full text here: http://selfdefinition.org/zen/garma-chang/practice-of-zen/ Zen Teachings of Huang Po, by John Blofeld. Pdf here: http://selfdefinition.org/zen/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhidharma http://www.selfdiscoveryportal.com/Pulyan.htm http://the-wanderling.com/pulyan.html Eliminate this – distracting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushin Convicted murderer executed in 1977 who had demanded the death penalty. In interviews he said he believed in predestination. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Gilmore http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sesshin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Castaneda http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu_(negative)

Hitting the back with a stick. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keisaku

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicameralism_(psychology)

Julian Jaynes, The Origin of Consciousness and the Bicameral Mind, review in TAT Journal Issue #, #7 http://www.searchwithin.org/journal/tat_journal-03.html#7

See chart on page: http://www.albigen.com/uarelove/sahaja.aspx

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhidharma

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_Cave

See 1977-511-Relative-and-Absolute-OSU-Columbus for more on Plato’s cave..

Los Angeles, 1946-1947? See Peace To The Wander, p. 11-12. http://selfdefinition.org/rose/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raja_Yoga

Rose: Yoga: Hatha, Shabd, and Raja. PDF: http://www.searchwithin.org/download/yoga.pdf

Rose is apparently differentiating from so-called automatic writings or channeled teachings, of which he also had a generally negative view, such as the Seth material. 1978-0412-Kent-State-University: “They can’t be established as being anything but fiction.” Also see 1977-0426-Intro-to-Albigen-System-Cleveland. Rose always advised not to trust voices.

Rose did extensive investigation in later years, such as in the mid-1950s with Steubenville Psychic Research, a group of about 40 people. See p. 70, Peace To The Wanderer.

Ecclesiastes 9:5. In the original Rose attributes the quote to Christ, corrected here.

Note on timeline. The White Lilly Chapel incident was Sept. 1, 1958.

Mid 1950s, see footnote above.

Happened in 1947. In the original Rose says “31 or 32 years of age”, corrected here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satori

Sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Maurice_Bucke

PDF here: http://selfdefinition.org/christian/

Raynor C. Johnson, Watcher On The Hills: A Study of Some Mystical Experiences of Ordinary People (1959), The Imprisoned Splendour (1953) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raynor_Johnson

See http://www.woodlandway.org/PDF/Leslie_Price_PP8.pdf

Also see http://www.bodysoulandspirit.net/resources/links_etc/linksetc.shtml

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Gurdjieff

See Ouspensky, In Search of the Miraculous, ch. 4. PDF: http://selfdefinition.org/gurdjieff/

“Philosophic” is Rose’s take. Gurdjieff called man number four “balanced”, meaning that the psychic centers work together, he is a product of school work, someone who has developed a permanent center of gravity and other characteristics.

Further explanation by Rose on the different spiritual steps of man appears in “Pathfinder”, 1986, TAT Journal, Issue 14: http://www.searchwithin.org/journal/tat_journal-14.html#1

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldous_Huxley Huxley wrote on spiritual breakthroughs, but no real reference to “exaltation” is found in Huxley’s books. http://selfdefinition.org/psychology/

However, Bucke makes use of the term in Cosmic Consciousness. (check Wm James, who references Bucke).

Rudolph Steiner. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthroposophy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosicrucianism

Rose mentions this trip briefly in “Yoga: Hatha, Shabd and Raja”.

End